No Gimmicks. Our Top 5 Branding Tips for Independent Artists

Singer-songwriters and Independent Artists themselves, Nina Blu and J. Xander dig into the mystical subject of marketing. Oftentimes, musicians think that branding needs to take a backseat to the music and while that's not totally wrong, Nina and J give their best arguments as to why your brand is so important as well as their best tips they've discovered along the way. 

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Nina: 0:05

Welcome to Playback, the podcast about what's hot and trending in music right now. I am singer songwriter Nina Blu.

J. Xander: 0:10

And I am singer songwriter producer J Xander.

Nina: 0:14

J, have you heard all the gossip about the new Britney book?

J. Xander: 0:18

Not really, no. I'm ashamed to say, but I'm curious.

Nina: 0:21

Okay. I have been saving it for after this pod. Like, I'm literally, I'm gonna go to bed, because if I start it tonight, I will stay up all night, and I know this, and I'm on a really good sleep schedule. But tomorrow, Tomorrow evening, I think I'm gonna start it. I have so much to do, but the stuff about Justin, oh my god. Gold. Absolute gold. Gossip gold. The chisme. It's beautiful.

J. Xander: 0:50

I'm sure there's a lot.

Nina: 0:51

Do you have your Halloween costume in order this year?

J. Xander: 0:55

I do. Um, I'm going as Spider Man. But like, the black one, Evil Spider Man, where, you know, he, like, blew up James Franco in the third movie. And even as a kid, I was like, why is this in a Spider Man movie? This seems unusually brutal.

Nina: 1:15

That was, that was a, like, a really dark Spider Man film, but Spider Man's, like... Actually really dark if you think about it with all the people he loses and stuff like

J. Xander: 1:23

That's true

Nina: 1:24

I was crying in no way home

J. Xander: 1:27

Really? Yeah.

Nina: 1:27

Yeah, Marissa Tomei just does it to me.

J. Xander: 1:30

Yeah, I could see

Nina: 1:31

She just does I do not have a Halloween costume and I have been a bit of a grinch about Halloween I don't know. I just haven't been in a spooky mood.

J. Xander: 1:40

Maybe that's your costume right there The Grinch.

Nina: 1:44

Janelle Monáe did that and they did it so well. You remember that?

J. Xander: 1:48

That's true. Yeah, I saw that picture of them.

Nina: 1:51

I'll, I'll think about it. Um, no, I was thinking about just ordering like a dress or something online. I don't, I don't know. I'm, I'm probably just going to go out with my little sister and come up with whatever. But, speaking of spooky, this episode we're talking about something that tends to mystify most independent artists and that is branding. J. When we talk about marketing and branding, a lot of musicians tend to roll their eyes because they believe it's gimmicky and they believe that the music should speak for itself. What is your argument to them that they should focus on their brand as an artist?

J. Xander: 2:24

Yeah, you're right. A lot of artists are scared about that. They might even find this episode spookier than the one we did last week. But yeah, so I mean, think about like the clothes that you wear. Everybody has like their distinct brand or like places that they like to go to as opposed to another one. And all of that has to do really with branding, I think. It's the way that it's like presented. It's how it's sold, not necessarily what it's, what's being sold. Cause you can buy a shirt anywhere. But you're probably going to make a decision based on, uh, everything around it that kind of calls you to a certain shirt that speaks to you.

Nina: 3:02

I mean, it's just about how you catch the audience's eye. Like, to me, good music is, of course, always the most important part of being an independent artist. Having a good product, of course.

J. Xander: 3:12

That's the minimum.

Nina: 3:13

Yeah. That's the minimum. That's the number one. Like, that is your number one task. It's making sure that the music is good. So that attitude to me is a little bit valid when people are like, I just want to focus on the music. I'm like, okay, both and. Um, but branding just helps you find your people while also staying true to your own values. And it's another method or has been another method for me. In my career, especially lately in decision making, it just makes things a little bit easier because I know myself and I know who I'm trying to contact. And I just feel like I have a way forward. For example, you and I took a branding class specifically for artists. That was. Did we meet in that class? I think we did.

J. Xander: 3:53

Well, that was the first class in the program, so yeah.

Nina: 3:56

Yeah, when we took our branding class, it also included a mission statement and archetyping, which helped to play into like genres that you might create within, which helps you just make decisions and help that music reach its proper audience, the people who are really gonna love it. And you can say that's gimmicky all you want, but at the end of the day, we are doing this to reach people.

J. Xander: 4:19

Yeah, and I was gonna say that class, I thought it was gonna be like a bunch of just us making a bunch of like graphic designs for ourselves, but it wasn't really any of that. It was like us really getting to know each other. Ourselves, I should say.

Nina: 4:34

Yeah.

J. Xander: 4:35

And for me, like good branding, that's what it should be. It shouldn't feel like you're actually trying to sell anything. If you're doing it correctly and really thinking about it, it should be more, Of like a self discovery journey for yourself as an artist. And I think that's so important.

Nina: 4:51

Absolutely. So we should mention our branding guru professor, um, is Patrick Ermlick and he is amazing about this. Huge shout out to him. He was really the person who made me think of it as an individual journey. It is coming from you and just how you communicate yourself to others, which, and how you find your people, which is really really important, especially if you want to build a career. So yes, the music is important, but your brand is also important. So it's a, it's a yes and.

J. Xander: 5:23

Once it's defined, I think you'll find that it's the opposite of selling out. Now you've just learned your kind of morals and what it is that you like and stand for even more after you've gone on that journey, I feel like.

Nina: 5:37

A friend of mine, we were talking about the sellout mentality, which I think is really common in the independent artist community, especially where I'm located. There's a lot of talk about like selling out, um, in, in a very negative term. And one of my friends posed this, he said, is it selling out or is it buying in? That's a mic drop moment. I was like, holy shit. I'm quoting that forever.

J. Xander: 6:00

It depends. Yeah, if you do it right.

Nina: 6:02

If you do it right, it's not selling out. If you stay true to yourself and to your values. So listeners who have been with us from the beginning will notice that we've started doing this kind of back and forth thing and we're really enjoying that. So for this episode we have 5 categories that we’re going to talk about today and we have come up with our best tips to independent artists within those categories and we're going to see if we have the same best tip or if we have something a little bit different. But we did agree on the categories ahead of time. Alright, let's get into it. So, first and foremost is the songwriting branding tip. How you brand yourself in your own songwriting, in the very craft that you've come here to make. J, what's your best tip for songwriting?

J. Xander: 6:44

Um, so for me, I don't know if this is my best tip, but it is one that resonates with me a lot, which is figure out the kind of language that you want to use as a songwriter. For example, somebody like Joni Mitchell does not use the same kind of vocabulary as Cardi B. I don't foresee Joni Mitchell ever saying this pussy tight like a nun anytime soon, so You know, you want to evaluate what it is that you're doing, but going back to like another story I found really interesting was when Lorde and Jack Antonoff were writing, um, Melodrama, she described writing one of the songs, and I don't remember which one, unfortunately, but she was describing Melodrama, and she was describing In her writing process, she was thinking in terms of like, oh, how would Phil Collins phrase this specifically? So sometimes, you know, adapting another songwriter's mentality when it comes to like vocabulary is very interesting. and can kind of help shape and mold the way that you phrase things in your songs. Another person that like really stands out to me in this sense is Julia Michaels because she uses a lot of weird words that like nobody else could get away with doing but she just has really quirky melodies and she's like I'm gonna make that word fit. Trust.

Nina: 8:08

Yeah. Yeah, and her melodies are always like really tight even though she has like really eclectic lyrics. Um, and she has great contour. I, I fucking love Julia Michaels.

J. Xander: 8:19

She's great.

Nina: 8:19

So mine is really very similar. It's, it's the same thing. I'm just gonna phrase it differently. Find your voice. And I found my voice the more I worked with other people and the more other people started to observe things about me, I really took that to heart. I didn't really know what my distinct voice was lyrically, especially until I wrote and wrote and wrote and I was act and, and I started to be criticized by professionals and, and people really looking with a critical eye at my work. Two professionals who we've spoken about before, Bonnie Hayes and Eric Leva, they both told me that I have a level of like humor and authenticity. And that's what feels most true to my style of writing. And so that has helped me make a lot of decisions. Now when I'm writing, I constantly check in with myself. What feels authentic? What feels relatable? What has that level of humor in it? Even when I write like darker, more esoteric songs, I make decisions from like that place of authenticity and I keep my metaphors really grounded because of it. So yeah, it's about finding that distinct voice and the best way to find it I think is to work with all kinds of people. Because that's when you really start to narrow it down. I won't say no to a collab. Most times. If I say no, you know what you did.

J. Xander: 9:32

Yeah. I was gonna say, sometimes people say be open all the time, but you know, sometimes.

Nina: 9:39

Maybe not.

J. Xander: 9:39

Sometimes you also have to find people that you just vibe with, you know.

Nina: 9:43

If it costs me my peace, then it's too much. Yeah. That's, that's kind of like my only rule. Like, that's it. Yeah. All right, so getting into Sonic branding, this one was something that I had a lot of trouble with, so this is more about like, I think, the production side of things. J, what is your best sonic branding tip?

J. Xander: 10:02

Yeah, so this is one that's difficult to separate sometimes because I've heard songs before where I'm like, I hate the song, I hate the lyrics, I hate everything about it, but it sounds so fucking cool. So my best tip is listen to maybe three songs that regardless of the song or like artist, anything behind it, just really look at the production that you're you know, of the three songs that you like. Just focus in on that and figure out what it is that you like about them. And the reason I started thinking about this is because I did a workshop with Enrique Muller, who is the head of production. He's the chair of production over at Berklee, and he was using Blank Space by Taylor Swift as a reference track and one thing he said is that you know This necessarily doesn't have to be your reference track doesn't necessarily have to be like your favorite song ever but what I'm looking for is With the type of instruments and sounds that are being used here and do I think that it's well made. So sometimes just looking at that, you know, just like what does the track sound like by itself? It's super important, so just honing in on like three songs I think that you like the production of can be super helpful.

Nina: 11:26

I always come in with at least two reference tracks when I'm working with a producer. Always, always. And I am very meticulous about what I like and what I don't like. I really unpack it. I'm like, I like these drums, I like this bass, I like these pads. And then, a lot of times I'll also like comment on vibes, but my best sonic branding tip is make a playlist. Make a playlist for whatever you're trying to work on that you can just listen to as you go about your day. And that has done wonders for me because Sometimes I'll have like five or six songs, and then as soon as the song is written, I just delete the playlist. But, usually what I'll put on the playlist are sonic references, and I'll put lyric references on there too. Like, it's a similar subject matter. How did they address this subject matter? And, and I know, and I keep them, like, the first half is always lyric, and the second half is always more like production kind of stuff. And so I always know, like, what I'm listening to, and I'll listen to it throughout my day as I'm trying to meditate upon and think about the song, especially in the drafting process. So that is my biggest one. We are all made up of what we listen to, whether we like it or not, because we, especially as musicians, we internalize music. It's, it's why we're here. It's what we do. And so being like really conscious about that and just going with your first instinct on like, Oh, I want the song to sound like this. It doesn't matter if it's old. It doesn't matter if it's new. Well. A little bit. We can get into that in another episode, but just having those references make a really big difference.

J. Xander: 12:55

I agree.

Nina: 12:57

All right. So our third category, this is something that trips up a lot of artists, a lot of like music artists, if they don't, if they're not naturally like, a visual person, but it's a visual branding tip. I think I know what yours is going to be, so I went a little different route.

J. Xander: 13:16

Yeah, I, as much as I try to like come up with something different, my biggest one is honestly, you need to have a color palette.

Nina: 13:22

I knew it!

J. Xander: 13:23

Of like five to seven, um, different colors and going beyond that, it's like anything that, well, this is just a rule of thumb that I use my, for myself, anything that I'm posting that's like visually based, it needs to include at least three of those colors. Otherwise, it needs to get rearranged or changed or something. And also, like, learn the basics of color theory. Because people perceive color, the general public perceives certain colors a, uh, specific way, so I would say use that to your advantage.

Nina: 13:55

There's a lot of research behind color theory psychologically from the arts, like, the whole thing, like, we all have associations with colors, and so I would heavily agree with Learn color theory and have a color palette. That would have been my top, but I thought that you were going to pick it. So I went with keywords. Have keywords. When we started doing keywords for this class, I thought it was the silliest exercise. And I was like, you want me to get to 15 keywords? Like, what? But now I found it's a really great way to, like, communicate with photographers, especially, because it really helps us narrow down our language and what we're looking for. So, um, I made a presentation before this photo shoot that I did last week. Oh my god, it was already last week. Feels like it was yesterday. So I did a photoshoot last week for a single that I have upcoming and I had keywords. I had 15 keywords and he knew exactly what I wanted and we got it done so quickly. And they're keywords that I came up with based on what I wanted for the shoot and based on how I feel about the single and how I feel as an artist. So it was a bit of a combination of all of these things. So practicing keywords, Looking at artists that you like visually associate with and just describing them to yourself and circling the ones that you associate with yourself. That can be a really great visual exercise to keep you visually on track.

J. Xander: 15:19

Yeah, actually one that I will Um, add on here now that you just mentioned it was having a lookbook, especially if you're going to do a photo shoot, like I've done a few and I wanted to do this last one that I did with my photographer, uh, shout out Luis. I sent him over. I think it was like 10 to 15 different looks of what I wanted because I wanted to go for something that was very like GQ magazine, something that looked very like professional, but I didn't want to do the corny like white background that you would see on like LinkedIn. Yeah, that, that, uh, Nina just like put her hand on her chin for those of you that are just listening to our podcast.

Nina: 15:59

For listeners.

J. Xander: 15:59

She's doing sight gags on a podcast, y'all. I But anyway, yeah, I didn't want to go for that corny kind of aesthetic. So I was like, let me do something kind of, um, you know, current and like really cool looking like GQ ish. We definitely got to that kind of look and I definitely think that honing in on that vision through other visuals really helped.

Nina: 16:24

Was that the shoot where you were in the blue suit?

J. Xander: 16:26

Yeah.

Nina: 16:27

I love that shoot. You look so good. And it was, like, it was high, high quality. For those of you who don't know what a lookbook is, it's essentially, like, a Pinterest board that you put into a PowerPoint that you can send to people as a PDF instead of having to share a Pinterest board. But, one of our former guests, Cati Landry, and I We are Pinterest freaks. I have done Pinterest boards for songs that I can't figure out. I do a Pinterest board for every photo shoot, for every video shoot, the whole thing, and I go through the keyword exercise. I do it ad nauseum, and I really pick out my favorites. And my photographer, shout out Albert, is really good about like, What do you like about this pose? What do you like about this? What do I need to keep in mind? And so, he and I have just gotten so good at communicating with one another. Love him to death. But yes, so, lookbook, Pinterest board, the whole thing. Like, have a visual reference the same way you would have a reference track to give to a producer.

J. Xander: 17:27

Yeah, and a good photographer will look at those and help you out with the posing if you don't know because I'm pretty awkward with that But you know, Luis helped me out a lot. So shout out to the photographers today

Nina: 17:42

The work they do and so I remember this is a fun little story my mom is obsessed with Albert My photographer. She wants to adopt him as her second son. Well, I guess she has four now, so fifth. Um, my mom just got married this year and she has, has three new stepsons. So I guess Albert would be, would be number five, my brother and stepbrothers. But anyway, um, but when I was first working with Albert the very first time, my mom was like, why? Like, just take pictures with your phone. Like, this is such a waste of money. Like, why would you do this? And when I got the pictures back, I was showing them to her, and she's like, oh my god, this is incredible. And it's because Albert really helped me pose, and he really helped me figure out, like, what I wanted to look like, and how I wanted to feel. For Christmas that year, just to kind of emphasize how good it was.

J. Xander: 18:33

You are being petty, petty Crocker, petty LaBelle.

Nina: 18:39

So I was being petty and I got like a really nice print of one of the pictures. And she hung it up and she loves it. And then she met Albert and now she's obsessed with him. And, um, yes, he is, he is always invited over whenever he needs and my mom will cook for him anytime.

J. Xander: 18:55

I'm telling you, honestly, you're Hairstylist and or barber, whatever, whatever you go to. And photographer as an artist, those are like your two most, those should be your two best friends.

Nina: 19:08

Trust them with your life. Yeah. Bake them cookies, whatever you have to do.

J. Xander: 19:12

Yeah, no, I thought the same thing too. Like I was like, Oh, I could just probably do it. But then I just decided to go through with like. You know,

Nina: 19:22

it's an expense. It is an expense, but you're paying for their expertise and you're paying for their materials. And as long as you feel like you haven't been cheated, which I never, I've never felt that way with Albert, not once, not ever. And they all have portfolios online so you can look for something with Albert. Like we really took a chance on each other because he wanted to get more into creative photography. And, and so his references online were like weddings. And I was like, I don't know if this is gonna work, but it did, and it's worked forever, yeah. So sometimes you take a chance, and it turns out, yeah, have a little faith.

J. Xander: 19:59

Yeah, that's interesting. Oh, one thing we should also probably mention, Nina, is um, how color theory, or lack thereof, can apply to photos that you take. Like a black and white photo will have like a completely different connotation and feel to it. Versus something that's super flashy and in color. So that's important as well. Black and white normally comes across as like something much more classic. So if you're like an acoustic songwriter, that works. Like that might work a little bit more for you, Nina. It would not work for me. You know what I mean?

Nina: 20:36

Yeah, or you could do like a really stark black and white and it would look editorial almost.

J. Xander: 20:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nina: 20:40

You could really like dig into it. You focused quite a lot on like kind of primary colors in that shoot if I... If I'm correct, you had like, like blue and yellow, and it was really vibrant and I loved it. And so you're right, like, color theory affects how people feel, and they will start to judge your music based off of the visual content that you put out. So you want your visual content to like, share some colors, right? Like, I have a song coming out, and I was like, what colors are in this? I was like, jewel tones, that makes sense to me. So that's how I did everything.

J. Xander: 21:12

Yeah, same thing goes for the people out in the industry now. Somebody like Adele, she could get away with doing a lot of visuals in black and white because her stuff really feels timeless.

Nina: 21:24

All of her album covers have been black and white.

J. Xander: 21:26

Yeah, um, I'm trying to think of like, an opposite person that probably couldn't do that.

Nina: 21:32

Dua Lipa, her last album, that wouldn't, that cover would not have worked in black and white. Those colors were perfect. They were ideal. And now she's, she might be doing something a little more, edgy, which I'm, I'm here for. I'm rooting for it. But it was like a very re referenced so much disco on the album. You want something that has bright colors. You want something that feels very modern. So why are you laughing?

J. Xander: 21:56

Can you picture any of the Charli XCX albums in black and white?

Nina: 22:01

No.

J. Xander: 22:01

That would be kind of, like, I'm picturing the, the one where she's, like, basically naked with just, like, the, just, like, the metallic stripes around her. And I'm like, oh, I'm picturing that one in black and white, and I'm like, oh, now it's classy.

Nina: 22:18

Would not work.

J. Xander: 22:18

Yeah. I love it as is.

Nina: 22:21

Very different vibe. Yeah. So, that is, it's a big reason why color theory is important, and, um, and you can, like, you can dig into your songs with it, and get into it. Like, blue has a connotation. I'm Nina Blu, so I always have to have something blue in there. I, picked that moniker, and then realized what I had done to myself, and it is my favorite color and I'm happy with it, but I do have to be very conscious about like, does this feel like a Nina Blu thing, because my name is associated with a color, so, just one of those things. Anyway, our next tip that we want to talk about is our best social media branding tip. We did do a longer social media episode if you guys want to go back and check that out with Skylar Star, but what is your best tip for social media, J?

J. Xander: 23:10

I would say just treat it like you're sharing more of yourself as opposed to what you think people want to see. Especially if you're going for like an artist kind of brand as opposed to like producer or something else specific. I think you brought this up, but it was, it was something along the lines of like, it should feel like almost a behind the scenes kind of thing. Um,

Nina: 23:36

Yeah, that's how I feel about TikTok for sure.

J. Xander: 23:39

Yeah. And of course, every social media platform is different, but. For me, that's just the biggest one. It's just like, find what allows you to share more of yourself the easiest way possible so that you can also have fun while doing it.

Nina: 23:53

Yeah, I feel like if you keep Posting on social media with the intent to go viral, you will just make yourself miserable. Yeah. Because that's not how it works. It is a means of communicating with your fans, and so it's a means of sharing with people that you really care about and that really care about you. And so you're right, like, showing your personality is the best way to handle social media. My biggest branding tip for social media that I give to everyone. I don't know why people think that I know the most about social media. The algorithm hates me, but um, adapt your Adapt your brand to the platform instead of being mad that the platform does not push your branded content Yeah, so we've all gotten tired of the car videos of did I write the song of the summer like the whole shit. Acoustic covers very rarely pop off. That's just not how TikTok works. It doesn't do well, or people are tired of the gimmicks, right? When people go on TikTok, they want something that feels more authentic, so treating it like behind the scenes works really well. Instagram has such a photography background. Skylar Star talked about that. And having something that feels more editorial. A little more cleaned up on Instagram. I was talking to a digital marketer about this yesterday. And he was like, that's the exact attitude that you need to have about those top two platforms. He's like, we suggest that you have two platforms that you post to consistently and he's like, and you have exactly the right attitude about it. And I was like, Oh, good. Thank God. Okay. Yeah. Figured something out.

J. Xander: 25:26

Yeah, like TikTok is very infamous for being kind of kitschy or just like catchy, funny with all of its content, or at least it should be, in my opinion, because people come there for entertainment purposes. I feel like TikTok in a lot of ways is kind of like the anti entertainment. The anti Instagram where it's just like, we're not, yeah, we're not trying to be pretty here. We're just trying to be stupid and like loud and as crass as possible. And I, that's kind of the reason I like it, honestly.

Nina: 26:00

That's why I like I go to Instagram for a different reason than when I go to TikTok and I try and keep that in mind, um, because something that we talked about in our class are mirror neurons and it's about humans naturally mirror each other's People who are like them. Like attracts like. It's just kind of a thing. And so, by being more authentic on social media, you will attract people who are more likely to like your music. Who are more likely to like you as a person and your brand. Just by being yourself. I know I sound like an after school special, but it, it's true. It's how it works if you really want to build a following that feels authentic to you and to your art. I just want to say, really quickly, while we're on the topic, um, the internet is forever, and don't talk about what you don't know. Like, there have been a lot of people who have been very pressured to share opinions about global events, that they're not educated enough to speak on the matter. And if someone asks you why you haven't commented, saying that you're listening and learning is a perfectly valid response. You don't have to speak to everything, and it's actually really wiser if you don't. If you feel compelled to share how you feel, I'm not going to judge you for it. I'm really not. Like, we've all been there. We all have personal experiences that contribute to why we feel like we need to say something, and that's... That's valid. I'm speaking solely to the people who don't feel comfortable saying something, but they feel pressured to say something. And you don't have to. You don't have to publicly comment on everything. Not everything needs your voice. And if you feel like doing something, there is an advocacy association that could use your volunteer hours or your donations. And that will be so much better than adding to the noise on social media. So you don't always have to speak out on an issue. You can behave quietly behind the scenes. Just wanted to say that to the people who have been a little uneasy about some of the, the discussions happening on the interwebs lately.

J. Xander: 28:02

Yeah, I love that advice of just saying, Oh, I'm listening and learning.

Nina: 28:07

That's perfectly valid. If I asked you, how do you feel about grilled cheese? And you're like, I'm listening and learning. I'd be like, good for you. Listen and learn. It's amazing.

J. Xander: 28:18

Work. How do you even respond to that?

Nina: 28:23

I do. I think it's a perfectly valid response. Like in, I think. A lot of times today, like, especially artists are being pressured by different people online to say something. And they might not be the best source to talk about that. We make music for a living. What the F do we know about a ton of subjects? Don't let other people pressure you into it, because you might wind up saying something that you really regret.

J. Xander: 28:50

And also don't feel like you have to be You have to have like the same take on like posts as somebody else so say for example you see people Like Cardi B. She you know was infamous for saying like a whole lot of vines, but if your Brand is based around being secret and stoic and a little bit more on the serious side Then you probably don't need to do stuff like that. Like Lana Del Rey would not be Posting the same kind of content that you know, Cardi B would because she's you know a separate person. So even with those kind of posts where you're just like being, you know dumb or whatever Keep in mind that it should still align with Who you are as an artist because like Nina said, everything's on the internet.

Nina: 29:39

Forever. Yeah. But that's another, like, great tip, J, is look at other artists social media within your genre and artists that you really admire and see how they use it.

J. Xander: 29:52

Yeah.

Nina: 29:52

Maybe make some keywords. And really try and model yourself after people that you feel aligned with in a brand sense.

J. Xander: 30:01

For me, one really good example that's like out there and really creative was FKA Twigs's biography on Spotify, because if you all have ever read that, I don't know what it says now, but when she was, when they were releasing their, I think it was an album a couple years ago, it was one of the most like profoundly deep and touching personal statements I think I've ever read by an artist before. And it works for her because that specific, you know, body of work that She was putting out at the time was very much like that. It was very exposed. It was very deep. It was very vulnerable.

Nina: 30:40

This is part of the larger conversation that we're trying to have is making sure that what you're doing outside of the music makes sense to the music that you're making.

J. Xander: 30:49

Erin Barra, do you remember her? She wrote the chorus with Patrick. Shout out to her. She came into our class one time and she instilled in us the importance of something called holistic prosody, which is a really just fancy way of saying making sure that everything you're doing lines up and makes sense. And I think that's a good example of that, you know, this statement that she's putting out on Spotify, which is normally a thing that like nobody reads or cares about because it, it normally reads like a Wikipedia article, right, for most people, but she found a way to still even with this platform. Tailor it to what it is that she's doing and that's kind of what that phrase means holistic prosody is just kind of making sure that Everything that you're doing across the board kind of aligns with you as an artist or like the current project that you're working on right now

Nina: 31:41

Yeah, it's such good advice All right, moving on to our fifth and final category our best video branding tip. This could be Videos that you post online. This could be music video So, J, what is your best tip?

J. Xander: 31:55

Just to clarify, I'm doing more so, like, videos that you post online, like, social media stuff. But, what I've heard from a lot of people that have found success in it, like Seids and Beautiful Beats, he's a producer on Instagram. They've both said this, is, um, keep in mind, who are you making this content for? Who do you want to see it? Are you wanting to get more students? Are you wanting to produce for other artists? Are you wanting to show off your mixing engineering skills to, you know, kind of sell that service? Do you want certain brands or companies to see it? Keep that in mind when you're making everything.

Nina: 32:37

No, that's so important. That's one of my things that I was gonna touch on was have an end goal in mind for every video. Yeah. Like, know where that video is going. Even if that goal is to just boost yourself in the algorithm. Like, I made a bunch of stupid content today, because I had makeup on, and I was like, that's just what TikTok wants, right? Like, I did some lip sync videos or whatever. And, um, That's a per it's a perfectly legitimate end goal, is just having, like, fodder for the algorithm because it will stop pushing my content if I stop making it, right? But if you really want to make a serious video, having an audience in mind and having them in mind is really important. You're right. Alright, so I'm coming at it from a little bit more of like an editorial video standpoint. I have one video out, it's called a Brand Byte video. Um, it was something that like, our professor Patrick Ermlich impressed upon us, and it's kind of an introduction to your brand.

J. Xander: 33:35

I remember.

Nina: 33:35

Now, I don't necessarily feel like that video fits me anymore, but I'm still really proud of it. I'm really proud of the making of it, etc. I'm filming a music video in a month. And so that's where my mind is really at right now, and I think my best tip is to try and bring as much of your personality into the video as possible. Know yourself. Know if you're good on camera, and... You know, know if you can act. If you can't act, get an actor friend or maybe hire an animator because that could be something really, really cool. But know yourself and know your brand because like, if you're really nervous in front of a camera that's going to come off and it's going to be off putting to your audience. I'm someone who's really comfortable in front of a camera. I've been photographed and videoed my whole life long. And so I have no problem with that, but I've noticed some people really have issue. They have issue with being perceived. You don't have to be in your own video. You just need to present your brand in the best way possible. And so I have a very limited budget for this video coming up. Independent artist life, right? And I looked up a bunch of minimalist videos and I was like, how can I tell the most fun story with the least amount of resources? And it hit and I had an idea, but I mean, budgeting is a really big deal. Right? You have to shop around a little bit. No is just an answer. You can't be afraid to get your nos. Video is often where things tend to get really expensive. So being really careful about it, um, and having that budget in place and really making sure that everyone knows what they're responsible for. But yeah, I mean, those are just kind of my tips for when you're moving from like a social media place to like bigger, more editorial videos that are really showcasing your brand like music videos and brand bites.

J. Xander: 35:28

Yeah, I remember in that, uh, the branding course at one point when we were talking about that kind of thing there was someone in there who was saying that they were gonna do like this full exposé documentary kind of thing where they talked about themselves a lot and Patrick was saying Oh, that makes perfect sense for your brand because you're more of the singer songwriter y bare my soul type of But for somebody like J, me, it wouldn't make sense to do that kind of video because a lot of my brand is based on, like, mystery, and even the way that I write lyrics is kind of vague sometimes, and I do that very intentionally, so keep in mind, again, the kind of artist that you are, because... If you are someone that's a little bit more vague or, you know, secretive, mysterious with your brand, you don't actually have to be in your videos that much. Like Eric, Eric Leva was mentioning

Nina: 36:24

No, there are probably plenty of actors who would be super happy to be in your video too. Like Yeah. Like up and coming people just reach out to your community, but sorry, what were you gonna say?

J. Xander: 36:34

No, I was gonna say actually Eric Leva, um, was suggesting that I do some like visual animation stuff for like an upcoming project that I have and I was like, oh for me that would be perfect, you know? So there's other, yeah, so get your actor friends, get your animator friends out there.

Nina: 36:51

Something that I was told, and, and it holds true, is that if there's no budget, there's probably very little exposure. So taking a job for exposure is not always a great idea, and you need to approach people with that humility. And say, look, this probably won't get a lot of exposure, but what you will get out of this is practicing your skills, if you have the time, if you have the energy, if you have the space to help me with this. And so, coming at it from more of like a collaboration standpoint, instead of, I'm hiring you to do this, is kind of the best way when you're reaching out to your community. So if I'm reaching out to an actor friend, and I'm like, look, I don't have budget to pay you, they should know. The exposure probably won't really be that big unless the video massively pops off, but it is a chance for them to showcase their talent. It is a chance for them to, to dig into what they love to do. And so I try and be very intentional about how I invite people into my projects from that point of view.

J. Xander: 37:49

That's very smart. Yeah.

Nina: 37:53

And that is, that is something to keep in mind. If there's no budget, there's probably no exposure. That's the long and the short of it, unfortunately.

J. Xander: 38:02

And unfortunately for us as artists, like, especially when you're first starting out, that might not be such a bad thing because you never know where it's going to lead. So, yeah.

Nina: 38:11

And, um, and sometimes people take a chance on you. And some of the best advice that I ever got was also from Patrick Ermlick. And that's no, it's just an answer. Try and figure it out. Understand that your budget is limited. And, and try and do your best with it. Know thyself. Alright, J. Any, any big tips for branding that come to mind now that we've had these five categories?

J. Xander: 38:44

One that I want to add since we're talking about collaborators is... Make sure that that person's brand also aligns with yours. You know, there's a reason why certain artists, even out mainstream artists, don't like collaborate with each other, just because it wouldn't make sense brand wise. You know, Adele's not out making songs with, not intentionally making songs with Megan Thee Stallion, which is why that meme that came out with the two songs of them, like, mashed up was such a thing, is because it's just not something that would, I don't think, unfortunately, happen. You know what I mean? But even on an independent level, it's just like, find people that are gonna compliment your skills and kinda align well with whatever project that it is that you're doing.

Nina: 39:32

Yeah. And a lot of that is like kind of esoteric. That's not necessarily like, do we make the same genre? Like there are people who cross genres with each other all the time, but it makes sense. And sometimes a collaboration just makes sense because these artists have something in common. There's an edginess to their lyrics that they have in common or, or something like that, is a commonality there. And trying to figure that out when you work with people. When you do go on a departure, when you cross genres, when you work with an artist that maybe some people might, like, stop for a second and think about it, write from the commonalities. From the very moment that you start the collaboration, find what you have in common. Everyone in this world has something in common. Otherwise, music wouldn't be a thing. We've all been through a bad breakup. That's why we all relate to bad breakup songs. We've all been through that puppy love feeling. That's why we relate to falling in love songs. Music is about making things as relatable as possible, and trying to find that with each person that you collaborate with will usually yield results.

J. Xander: 40:39

I think this is why, like, sonic branding can be so important, too. Yes. Because a lot of the time, yeah, just exactly what you said can work, but also just having a sound that captures both artists can almost do all the work for you. We talked about Beautiful Liar by Shakira and Beyonce during the Shakira episode, and I feel like that's a really good example. That track alone, you could just hear it. Picture those two on it. You know what I mean?

Nina: 41:06

Oh, yeah. And then, well, something more recently, Lady Gaga jumped on stage with the Rolling Stones. I was like, that tracks.

J. Xander: 41:12

Oh, yeah.

Nina: 41:13

That tracks for me. She, she's done everything. I mean, Gaga can do whatever the hell she wants. But, like, that made sense to me. There was some commonality there that I haven't explored because I'm just thinking about it right now. But I saw it. I was like. That's cool. Like, oh, I'm surprised. But it's not like a, oh, really? It's like a, oh, that's awesome. Good for them. That looked like a great show. So, that's just, it's kind of the vibe that you're going for is that, that surprise is like, oh, how cool. That's different. As opposed to like, really? You two? Huh.

J. Xander: 41:48

Yeah, that's true. How about you? Any other tips that we can add?

Nina: 41:54

Nope, I think we hit all the points. I might think of something later, but any independent artists out there, if you have anything to say about our branding tips, anything that helped, or anything that you want to add, please leave it in the comments. We love getting comments from you all, either on Instagram, or wherever you stream, so let us know, please. J, are you ready for Playback Pick of the Week? What is your Playback Pick this week?

J. Xander: 42:22

So my Playback Pick is gonna be She Said It First by my friend Dito's band Midnight Beverage. It came out this past weekend appropriately during midnight, which again is a good example of holistic prosody, just making sure everything goes together because he actually went to school for like music marketing. So We should have him on here at some point. I think just to talk about that and some other single Yeah, and some other singles he and I will be releasing pretty soon But yeah It has a really cool like a little bit of maroon 5 but like an edgy maroon 5 kind of feel to it

Nina: 43:01

Oh, I'm definitely gonna have to check that out for sure so my Playback Pick this week is is actually completely and totally influenced by you. You told me to check out the new Tainy album and I cannot stop listening to La Baby. Yeah. So, I don't know if it's La Baby or L. A. Baby, but it has Daddy Yankee on it and Sech. I was feeling really, like, kind of homesick this week for Panama and Sech is, um, a really prominent Panamanian rapper, and I cannot stop listening to it. It's got such great hooks. Everyone delivers. I mean, it's Tainy, so it's always, it's always good. Um, but I've, I've been playing that on repeat this week and it's been getting me up and moving.

J. Xander: 43:44

Yeah, which talk about somebody with a distinct sonic brand, you know? Yes. Tainy is, you know, one of the best to ever do it in reggaeton. Really, it wasn't even on, it wasn't a big genre until he got, it.

Nina: 44:00

No, and like, he's someone to explore with sonic branding for sure, because there are a lot of times that I listen to reggaeton, and I'm like, the only thing that is interesting is the rapper, the vocalist, because this just sounds like they, like, were rapping over a beat. With Tainy, like, it all just, it makes sense. It just, I, I don't know, like, I know that I'm listening to one of his tracks from the very first chord. Like, it's, it's so well produced, it's so well done, as opposed to, like, some of the other, like, reggaeton songs that I hear that are catchy, that I love, that I enjoy, but it just feels like they found a beat online.

J. Xander: 44:37

Yeah, this is actually really important, um, going back to the importance of, like, other people you work with, singers, songwriters, if you don't produce anything, that's another person you need to make best friends with, your producer, especially if, yeah, if you're working in, like, a loop based genre, like hip hop or R& B, reggaeton, that kind of stuff, it's super important because, you know, somebody like Timbaland, He is a legend just because he has a very distinct sound in a genre that's infamous for being very repetitive with its soundscape. Just like Tiny. Yeah.

Nina: 45:18

Alright, J, any final comments?

J. Xander: 45:22

I don't think so other than just have fun. You know, sometimes you're gonna do a series of videos or content, whatever, just stuff that doesn't work at all. But that really doesn't mean that you should quit. That just means, oh, okay, maybe this just didn't resonate with people for some reason. Let me try something else. And a lot of fun. A lot of people that, like, have made it now talk about that too, where they went through a phase where, like, what they were doing just was not working, so, you know, there is a science to it, but try to have fun with it along the way as well, I think. Otherwise, you're just not going to want to do it, period.

Nina: 45:58

David Bowie is one of those who, like, could not get his career off the ground at first until he rebranded. And if you're, if you feel a little silly that's probably natural. Especially like, I feel silly in photo shoots and stuff, and that's a okay. That's fine.

J. Xander: 46:14

Hey, if you feel silly, that probably means you need to post that to TikTok.

Nina: 46:18

Probably, definitely, for sure. All right, guys, that is everything. Next week is our 1989 episode, Taylor's Version. So this will be Playback the Podcast, Taylor's version.

J. Xander: 46:32

That's exactly what we're going to name the episode too.

Nina: 46:35

Episode, title, done. One thing off the checklist. Great. Hopefully you guys can tune in with us. Have a Safe Halloweekend and go create some good in this world. Bye!

J. Xander: 46:48

Bye!