Playback the Music Podcast

Is TikTok Bad for Artists?

• Playback Hosts • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Songwriters and independent artists Nina Blu, J. Xander, and SKY BLAZE STAR get together to discuss the news of the week and how TikTok affects the industry. They talk about chasing virality, who uses the app well and who doesn't, their personal experiences, and give a little advice on how to use your brand to advertise for your artistry. With lots of inside jokes and tangents, it's as chaotic as a well curated FYP. 

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Nina:

Welcome to Playback, the podcast all about what's hot and trending in music right now. I'm singer songwriter Nina Blu.

J. Xander:

And I am producer, singer, songwriter, J Xander.

Sky:

And I am songwriter and artist SKY BLAZE STAR.

Nina:

Alright guys, starting with the Billboard Hot 100 Top 10 this week, there is a brand new entry at number one. It is I Remember Everything with Zach Bryan of Something in the Orange fame and my personal favorite, featuring Kacey Musgraves. Something in the Orange only reached 10 compared to this number one, even though it was number one on the country charts, I think, for a long time. This is the biggest upset of the week premiering at number one, and I just have one question after listening to this song. Are we okay? Like, as a society? This is such a deeply emotional song. Have you guys had a chance to listen to it yet?

J. Xander:

Yeah.

Nina:

What were y'all's first impressions?

J. Xander:

First of all, I was just surprised that it was number one, in all honesty. Just because it, it doesn't typically strike me as the type of song that would be anywhere on like the top 10, just because it's like, it's not really that hooky in my opinion, but it's subject matter is like it doesn't like pull any punches. It's very much just like this is in your face, sad, just deep, deep levels of depression.

Nina:

That's why I asked, are we okay? So what did you think when you listened to it?

Sky:

I honestly feel like just even in comparison to Something in the Orange, which obviously has just like been our entire, I don't even know, like spring and summer, basically. It does pretty much shock me that it, this song, this new song like charted so so quickly and so to the top, um, I, I really think that maybe we need to just take it back in a second. I don't, I don't even know how does a song chart like first week like that. I, I, it just shocks me.

Nina:

Well, this did coincide with his album release.

J. Xander:

Yeah, which is all over the top 100 right now. It's kind of crazy.

Nina:

Yeah, but we've seen this happening more and more of like an album taking over the top 100. Yeah.

Sky:

Like, I guess, I don't know. We have seen it, it's just that okay, think of last fall and like Unholy. Even Unholy didn't start out being like, number one. I don't know.

Nina:

No, but Olivia Rodrigo has premiered three times at number one. So people do just drop a song and get enough streams in a week that as soon as the recount happens. They're number one. This was a real disconnect for me with Kacey Musgraves's brand, because she usually does have such like bright, poppy country. This was also her first Billboard number one. Her previous record was number 60 with Follow Your Arrow, fantastic song. And, this is despite winning six Grammys, including Album of the Year for Golden Hour, which is one of my favorite albums of all time.

J. Xander:

Me too.

Nina:

So I'm really happy for her. But I was really surprised to hear her on this track, even as emotional as her last album was following her divorce. And it's just, it took me a couple listens to get into it, especially because I wouldn't have paired their voices together, but I did enjoy it. I do, I do really like them together.

Sky:

I was just about to say something a little bit similar I feel like Even though I may have sort of different feelings about the song or like my taste, I really do think that the collaboration makes sense to me.

J. Xander:

I agree. This is the type of song that you would play in the background of you, like, in the fetal position in the shower. Like this would be the soundtrack to that type of crushing moment in your life.

Nina:

I agree. Yes. I feel like this has great sync potential for those moments.

Sky:

That's so funny.

Nina:

Sync potential in my own life. I can't pay them anything other than the micro payment they get for the stream.

J. Xander:

I'll pay you in tears. That's what I'll give you.

Nina:

That's, I think that's how that's gonna work. It's a deeply emotional song. It took me a couple listens to get the gist of it because I was like,

J. Xander:

Yeah,

Nina:

Why is he talking about the dog? Why bring the dog into this? Why is her mother bringing it? Okay, I get it. The line about the Labrador was just odd to me. But I do enjoy his kind of like off the cuff lyrics because he does have a great sense of realism to them. But after hearing that, I couldn't help think about, like, the joke about country music that it's all about a pickup truck and a dog, or if you play a country song backwards, he gets his truck back, he gets his dog back

J. Xander:

The man knows his audience, you know.

Nina:

Which is funny, because I remember Cati Landry, who was on a previous episode, she was saying that he doesn't want to be classified as country, that he's not sure if that's a genre.

Sky:

I think nowadays a lot of artists are really not wanting to be classified in the genre. I think that's becoming, just from what I've heard, I think it's becoming just more spoken about how a lot of artists like don't want to be just one. And honestly, even though sometimes that's not the case, there are sometimes where it is. Literally Zach Brian was on the alt chart too. He's a hot 100 pop, which is considerably pop. Then he was on country, which is that, he was on the alternative chart. I think also we have to, maybe a discussion for another day, have like sort of an expanding or broadening idea of what genre really means at this point.

Nina:

Sky, that's a really good idea, but to piggyback off of something you said, if you listed, oh, this song is pop, alternative, and country, I would've been like, that tracks, after listening to his music and his style. I would've been like, that makes sense to me. The only thing you're leaving out is maybe some Americana vibes. I mean, maybe combining genres gives you more of a chance to chart. He is all over country radio and they love him. So that's not something to to discount. At the day, I think it's great song.

Sky:

It is

Nina:

The rest of the top 10 did the thing that it's been doing all summer where it's like birds on a line that all got up and rearranged and landed. In different spots on the same line, so number two, we have fast car. Number three is Paint the Town Red, Doja Cat. Four is Last Night, Morgan Wallen. J, you and I predicted that it might break the record for 15 weeks. I think with this premiere of the Zach Bryan song, we might be wrong about that.

J. Xander:

Yeah, I think so, which is kind of unfortunate because I was kind of hoping it would, but it's fine.

Nina:

And I was really disappointed that I wasn't included in any of the conversations about Song of the Summer because this has been number one all summer long, spring and summer. Moving on, number five is Cruel Summer, speaking of, Taylor Swift. Number six is Rich Men North of Richmond, Oliver Anthony Music. Seven is Snooze, SZA, who popped back up probably because of all of our talk about donating a kidney to her last week.

Sky:

She's like, you know what, that's super generous, here's a song.

Nina:

I feel I feel like we should take credit for that. We got it.

Sky:

We just manifested it.

Nina:

Used to be Young by Miley Cyrus premiered at number eight. We talked about it last week. Our other Disney girlie, Selena Gomez, is sitting at number 19, which is also a huge accomplishment for her song Single Soon. And then Dance the Night is number nine and Fukumean gunna has fallen to number 10.

J. Xander:

Yeah, old reliable, still hanging on.

Nina:

We've been joking about it since we started this podcast. I, I might be a little sad to see it go.

J. Xander:

Yeah.

Nina:

All right guys, let's talk about the top news from the week. So, ASCAP shaded BMI over sale news with a social media campaign. ASCAP launched, a video that appears to be in response to a recent Billboard exclusive that revealed that ASCAP's main competitor, which is Broadcast Music Incorporated, BMI, may sell itself to a private equity firm. Sources say the potential deal has an estimated price tag of 1. 7 billion. Billion with a B dollars. And, yeah, I'm not happy to see private equity keep sticking its nose in the music industry. And I was really glad that ASCAP clapped back on that.

Sky:

Yeah, it's so hard. It's still all capitalism, right? I mean, we've had this discussion and I think there's some benefits to it. Like maybe there, there could be more benefits offered. You never know to like BMI, if a private equity firm can, can do that. Do I think they will? No. Do I have hope that a private equity firm is going to be like, here's songwriters, here's some more benefits because you have literally negative right now. I wish they would, you know, give that, but I don't think they will. And, uh, I think I'm, I'm very proud to be an ASCAP member.

J. Xander:

I mean, historically, it's always been kind of like BMI has been known for it because they were started more so by like radio broadcasting networks and that kind of association. So I'm just curious to see how it will go. Moving forward, obviously, but to be honest, I mean, with where we're at right now on like the independent level, it doesn't matter as much from my perspective. This is more so gonna affect like, the bigger names in the industry, I think.

Nina:

I think that's right. I mean, when I think of private equity, I think of most of the world's woes can be traced back to private equity and hedge funds. And it is capitalism. I don't think anybody offers to buy someone and then comes in and gives more benefits to the songwriters. That would be wonderful if that was what was happening. At the end of the day. These performance rights organizations or PROs, I don't think that they have our best interest at heart. They're not going to go to bat for us the way that WGA or SAG AFTRA did, and they have the ability to, which is what's really kind of made me sad over the years, but they keep buying into the streaming model, and it's not doing anyone any favors, which might have led to this sale.

Sky:

It also makes me curious if BMI is still going to be a free option, because I know for like a lot of young or starting out songwriters, BMI being free to join was a very large thing and still having the resources and sort of the networking events and whatnot. So I'm curious to see what happens with that.

Nina:

Yeah, I don't know if I want private equity managers making decisions about music and content and songwriters and what fees they pay. There's already a misconception that people in the music industry make a ton of money, which is inherently not true. Our middle class is all but decimated because of streaming. So this does not excite me. Um, but I also, I don't know, ASCAP clapping back just had negative energy to me because I was like, what are you guys doing? Are you going to bat for us when we're talking about issues with streaming? When we're talking about issues with rights? And when we're talking about a lot of issues with social media, which we're going to talk about a little bit later in this episode. So, it fell on deaf ears. I wasn't impressed.

Sky:

A little bit petty.

Nina:

A lil' bit petty, it sounded more like they were jealous.

J. Xander:

It's not helping any of us at the end of the day. So it's like, I'm glad you guys have your beef going on, but I mean, it's kind of like watching Wendy's Twitter beef with McDonald's and all those other Twitter pages.

Nina:

That's exactly what it felt like.

J. Xander:

It's just like, you know, it's funny, but at the same time, like, fuck y'all, y'all are still big corporations that don't give a fuck about anybody but yourselves. So

Nina:

Thank you. That is the exact energy. I was looking for how to describe it. That was it. J, you nailed it.

Sky:

Preach.

J. Xander:

Shout out to the Wendy's Twitter though. Y'all do a good job. Don't come for us.

Sky:

Oh my gosh. The Wendy's Twitter is so fabulous.

Nina:

Legendary. Alright guys, on to something a little bit more fun. Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion beat their copyright lawsuit over WAP and THOT Shit. A federal judge ruled that lyrics including pussy so wet were too short and unoriginal to be protected by copyright law. And can I just say, if I had known that I could rule on things like that, I would have gone to law school and become a judge several years ago.

J. Xander:

Work. That judge. That's amazing. Wait, can you, can you read that statement just one more time? I don't think, I don't think I heard it.

Nina:

A federal judge ruled that lyrics including pussy so wet are were too short and unoriginal to be protected by copyright law

J. Xander:

It was, it was even better the second time around. Thank you, Nina. That really served my soul.

Nina:

I tried to add some drama the second time.

J. Xander:

I could tell.

Sky:

If I was the judge, I would love to be said If I was a federal fucking judge, I would love to say, So I declared that the lyrics, Pussy is so wet. Is not copyrightable.

J. Xander:

Bang.

Sky:

That would be the highlight of my life.

Nina:

Moving on from the good jokes. We had to learn a lot about copyright in our degree program. It's mostly about intellectual property. I don't think people understand that, that there are some things that are too vague to be considered intellectual property. So, I put up on my Instagram should Bruno Mars have gotten credit, Instagram, From Miley Cyrus song Flowers, and a bunch of people said yes. But the thing is, none of that was really intellectual property worthy. Those were very vague statements and she turned them around with enough change that, no, he, he really doesn't get anything out of it. So I think it's a really interesting case to say, like, No, these short statements like this cannot be copyright. They're not... Intellectual property, they're too common.

J. Xander:

Right, because if there aren't precautions like that, it just turns into a slippery slope. Where it's like, everyday sentences could be copyrighted, and that's just, that would get ridiculous.

Sky:

Yeah, imagine the phrase, like, in my head, got copyrighted. Like, how many...

Nina:

That's such a good example. How many songs have that? Or, um, Break My Heart, or any of its variations, right? Like...

Sky:

Love me.

Nina:

Yeah, oh gosh.

J. Xander:

Give me a million dollars, please, cause I used I love me in a song, please Judge. Give me ten million dollars right fucking now.

Nina:

Oh my gosh. So, this is on the heels of Megan and Cardi releasing a new collab called Bongos. Did you guys see the album art? I am so excited about this song.

Sky:

Oh no, I haven't seen the album art. I saw the article and everything and like all the news press releases, but I didn't see the frickin cover. I'm so jealous.

Nina:

They look fantastic.

Sky:

I'm sure they do.

Nina:

I'm so hyped for this song and I haven't even heard it yet based on, on that picture alone. We will cover it probably ad nauseum as soon as it comes out because we're all fans. All fans of this collab, and the more of the two of them, the better. There have been a lot of really interesting rulings regarding rap lyrics recently, too. One that was really interesting is a law that was passed in California. Rap lyrics are no longer allowed to be used against an artist in court to prove criminality unless it pertains to the case as ruled by a judge before trial. There have been several cases. where people have been discriminated against based on their own lyrics. And, I'm sorry, we all love a good murder ballad, but that doesn't mean that we're all ready to Goodbye Earl at any minute.

Sky:

I feel like it's kind of irrelevant, like, it's, it's art, it's not per se, like, exactly what you feel. This is the art of storytelling, and we can exaggerate and make as much fluff as we want, but it doesn't mean that like, oh, it's really true. Um, metaphors are a perfect example of things that aren't true that we use to describe our stories, so.

Nina:

SZA talks about murder constantly. To the degree, I need to ask her if she's okay. That is her, you know, like.

Sky:

That's her signature.

Nina:

Murder is the answer, what was the question? Like, that is SZA's whole MO, and I love it.

J. Xander:

She said, kill first, ask questions later. I love her.

Nina:

Kill Bill first, ask questions later.

J. Xander:

There you go.

Nina:

Moving on because the Devil works hard, but Taylor Swift works harder. Taylor Swift managed to ditch dealing with Hollywood Studios in order to release her Eras tour film to AMC. I believe it's going to be in other theaters as well. This is in the midst of a Hollywood strike and she had gone to AMPTP previously, which for those of you who don't know is the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers, and they made such outrageous demands that she was like, forget about it. I'm just going to negotiate with the theaters directly. Which wound up being a really good idea, and theaters were really happy to have that done. She adhered to the WGA and SAG AFTRA demands, Apparently the AMPTP has been squeezing theaters for years, which is why... Popcorn and soda has gotten so expensive because they gotta pay their employees somehow, but the amount of profit that they have been getting per ticket sale has been decreasing over the years. And Swifties, in typical fashion, broke AMC's record for single day advance revenue with 26 million in the first 24 hours. So take that, Marvel. Taylor Swift is doing it again. Do you guys think that we're gonna see more artists? Negotiating with theaters and surpassing the AMPTP and putting tours to film.

J. Xander:

I hope so.

Nina:

I hope so, too.

J. Xander:

Yeah, if I'm being honest.

Sky:

I hope so, but you have to be Taylor Swift to have that kind of negotiating power, you know what I'm saying? Like, or someone in the Taylor Swift caliber.

Nina:

I hope Beyonce's right behind her. I want to see Renaissance.

Sky:

Right. Um, I think that for a majority of artists, that's probably not gonna happen.

Nina:

I have to say, I like going to the movie theater. I like getting the overpriced popcorn and soda. I don't even care. I enjoy it. That's what was part of what made the Barbie movie so much fun, and I am looking forward to going and seeing Eras but you're right, Skye, I'm trying to think of what would have the pull to get me to the movies. It would either have to be a really compelling story about an artist that I'm not necessarily familiar with, or it would have to be someone like a Taylor Swift or Beyonce, someone really big, to, like, pull me in

Sky:

Yeah, and I did notice in, uh, one of the press release articles about this that they were encouraging people who go see the movie to do, like, the whole, like, Eras tour, bring friendship bracelets, get all the stuff. So we're gonna get another Barbie bringing the community together part two for the year.

Nina:

I kind of felt like if you saw the Eras tour in person, you should have been barred from seeing the movie for two weeks, so the rest of us might have a chance at going.

Sky:

I am one of those people. I just, I could not afford the tickets. I would have loved to see it, but like, I've just had to use TikTok as my, my outlet of seeing all the cool concerts.

J. Xander:

Same.

Nina:

I don't know if there will be Tay-gating in front of the movie, but I think that would be a great time. To some more unfortunate news, we have several deaths this week. First is Steve Harwell, former lead singer of Smash Mouth, died at 56. Dreamweaver singer Gary Wright passed away aged 80. And Jimmy Buffett, Margaritaville singer songwriter and entrepreneur, died at 76. Guys, which was... The death that surprised you the most this week?

J. Xander:

I think Steve Harwell, honestly. Because he's really young. And everybody's grown up with Shrek. So, you know, everybody has heard his voice. Well, from, my generation, anyway. That movie is so important. It's in the National Film Registry. At this point, that's how important Shrek is to our culture. So that was, for me, that was the saddest. I honestly was not familiar with. That much from the other two, but also so I was a little biased.

Nina:

I was very familiar with Jimmy Buffett. I am that girl who has Jimmy Buffett loving parents. So I've heard a lot of Jimmy Buffett's music over the years. Jimmy Buffett is someone really interesting to talk about in terms of branding because he took that Margaritaville song and he made it into a brand and it made him into a billionaire. I will say I have used a Margaritaville margarita maker, and it was truly one of the best margaritas I've ever had in my life, so RIP Jimmy Buffett, I love you, and yeah. All of these were really unfortunate. Shrek is probably one of my favorite movies, in English and in Spanish.

J. Xander:

It's a disgusting, disgusting film. I love it. Every second of it.

Nina:

Alright guys, and finally, getting a little bit into our theme of this week, is TikTok good for artists? TikTok has affected a large amount of industries, everybody's making changes, and unfortunately, according to Digital Music News, YouTube is now prioritizing short form content. YouTube Shorts have amassed billions of views, and the Financial Times cited senior staff expressing concerns that the platform is losing its way. YouTube, which is quite famous for long form content, I mean, that's where we go when we want to see a longer explanation than what TikTok will give you. And... Most of the stuff that's on Shorts was already posted on TikTok, or is going to be cross posted to TikTok, so I don't know why they're deprioritizing what has created their platform. I mean, we've all joked about going to YouTube University for this, that, or the other. Right, it just

J. Xander:

seems like... Everything is trying to be TikTok now because people's attention spans are so much shorter. It's, it's kind of crazy. Um, and Instagram has a bad habit of always trying to be exactly like the next app that comes out. Like, it tried to be like Snap with the story mode and now it's trying to be TikTok with the reels, but it never quite... does it as effectively as the app that it's trying to copy. You know what I mean? So this feels very similar to that.

Sky:

Yeah. I was reading some stuff about Instagram and it started out super photography oriented and now it's become much more of a follower than an innovator, which is why I feel like TikTok is a platform that a lot of Gen Z, at least, are using. And, like you said, Nina, then bringing it to Instagram Reels, YouTube Shorts. So, really, it doesn't make sense why YouTube is doing this to me either. And I think to a lot of people out there, they'd probably be on the same train of thought. Especially because YouTube has an advantage where... They are the long form video site for anything. I mean, I don't, I don't even know another one. I know it might sound like an idiot thing to say, but I go to YouTube for any long form video other than streaming platforms for movies.

Nina:

The only one I can think of is Vimeo, which I've used for like a few odd projects in school when I was in my undergrad and stuff, just to, share things when I had a video that was too long to just send somebody in an email, right? YouTube, it has such a working business model, and I even read that they have even more commercial opportunities because you can fit advertisements in the midst of a long form video, you can fit more advertisements in than you can when somebody's scrolling and an advertisement only comes up, like, every few videos. So this also feels like a poor business decision, but I love what you said about innovation. I think you're right. I think what is off putting to a lot of Gen Z Is this follower mentality of TikTok was this innovative thing and now Instagram and YouTube and a whole bunch of other platforms are chasing after this and it's got kind of like a desperate energy to it. Just being honest.

J. Xander:

Yeah, and none of them are nearly as streamlined as TikTok either. Have you guys ever, have y'all ever tried to edit anything in shorts or Instagram reels before? It's a pain in the ass.

Nina:

And Instagram is apparently suppressing content that's not shot or edited within the Reels section of the app. So if you are cross posting, like, it's not doing anything for you, even though the platform isn't very user friendly.

Sky:

I mean, I would go as far as to say that all platforms have been accused at one point or another of suppressing content that wasn't created in app. But at the same time, It just feels like all the platforms are trying to become each other. I feel like, you know, a few years from now, there might not even be much differentiation between what all the platforms offer. It's just going to be like, which interface do you like better?

Nina:

Yeah, that's such a good point, Sky, because like when I go to Instagram, it's for a specific thing. When I go to TikTok, it's for a specific thing. Like when I go to Instagram, I want to catch up with people I actually know. When I go to TikTok, I usually want to laugh at people I don't know. When I go to YouTube, it's because I'm looking for something really specific that I need right now. And I need a longer video like, I had to fix the toilet once, and a friend of mine was like, how did you figure this out? I was like, listen, I am an independent woman and I can YouTube it myself. And we had a big long laugh about it. But it's true. Like, when I've wanted to look up how to use new plugins, I go to YouTube because I know that they have some producer who spends five minutes advertising himself before he actually gets into what I need. I'm just saying. I'm really tired of listening to why I should subscribe to you in an ad for five minutes before you get into the one little tidbit I need about Logic Pro X. Thanks guys.

J. Xander:

I always skip that stuff. I'm gonna date myself here, but, you know, in the olden days of yore, there was Myspace, which was for learning coding while you were 11 years old, just to, like, change the, like, color on your profile. It was outrageous.

Nina:

That is all of my HTML experience That and, like, Tumblr. As much as I am ashamed to admit it, I'm not ashamed to admit it.

J. Xander:

I didn't use Tumblr. I have dignity.

Nina:

Oh my god, where is Cati when I need her?

J. Xander:

Yeah, she would vouch for you on that. I, I, I can't. I'm sorry.

Nina:

That and our mutual love of Jane Austen.

J. Xander:

I like Jane Austen too, just not as much as Cati. That's like her favorite person ever. We're just kidding. Go stream Mine's Eye, y'all.

Nina:

Yeah, go stream Mine's Eye. Everybody go stream Mine's Eye. Leave it in.

Sky:

This is so chaotic. This needs to all be cut out.

J. Xander:

It won't be. Anyway, back to you, Nina.

Nina:

All right, guys. Up next, we're going to talk more about is TikTok bad for artists? Is it bad for songwriters? After this quick break. We'll see you in a minute.

J. Xander:

Peace.

Nina:

Welcome back. Getting into the meat of the episode, we were talking about, is TikTok bad for artists? I don't know about y'all, but all over my Instagram feed was this explosive article that Ethan Millman wrote for Rolling Stone, how teasing tunes on TikTok screws songwriters. This came as a surprise to a lot of people. I think there's this larger narrative that TikTok helps promote fresh talent, and we in the industry have heard a lot of negative talk about TikTok and about how labels won't allow artists to release music unless there's a viral video to go along with it, or they want a certain number of likes or impressions on the song before it comes out. Uh, apparently Millman interviewed several people and the article was specifically about artists who will tease songs and if they don't perform well, then they won't cut it. And that means that the songwriter who actually wrote the song cannot pitch it to another artist. Not because the song is bad, or it might not work for said artist, but because it doesn't feel fresh or authentic. Because there's a lot of bias around artists who write their own songs, for better or for worse. I think that's intellectual property theft. I think that's just bad manners, but it is opening up this conversation about should we be investing so much in the TikTok algorithm? Does that determine what is and what isn't a good song?

Sky:

I mean, I think that it does. I have like mixed feelings on this, honestly. I think in one sense, like in this case, with artists who are using songs that have been collaboratively written, I think it really does screw the songwriter, and I don't think that social media is the only way to prove a song is worth, popularity or the Hot 100 or whatever. In the other sense, for like songwriters, right, who are putting their stuff up on social media and testing and seeing if it works, I mean, we've seen that happen all the time. Or at least, I don't know, I see it happen all the time. I follow a lot of songwriters on TikTok and whatnot. They'll put out a song, two songs, like every day of what they're working on and the videos that go viral, some of them have put out as songwriter slash singers. So, do I think that it's, like, the only way to tell? No, but I do also think that... in some cases our selection of music is small and it's all being fed to us, either by movie, films, uh, streaming, TV, all that stuff, or by the platforms, or by social media, really.

J. Xander:

I think it's really hard to tell because sometimes, just like, the amount of views that your video gets, it's totally dependent on something as stupid as, like, what time of day you post it.

Nina:

It's so subjective, yeah.

J. Xander:

So it's just like, it's impossible to gauge, like, oh, this one would actually be successful as... a song or whatnot. And I have heard of artists that do that kind of thing. They'll sample a couple different songs that they're considering having a single and they'll kind of let the viewers decide. But again, because it is like so subjective and using a different hashtag could, you know, probably get you more views, probably get you more seen by more people, could, you know, change the, the outcome of your decision. And I mean, ultimately, I feel like people should just choose what music they want to put out on their own anyway. If you feel like something is single ready, or you want to put something out into the universe and you really believe in that, then stand in that and just put it out.

Nina:

I agree with you, J. The issue here is really an artist not being sure of a song, so they're putting it up on TikTok to see if it works. Which all of us have done, but if you're not the one stop, if you're not the only person who wrote the song, if there are other songwriters, dependent upon whether that song gets cut or not, and you don't have their permission, and then you're gonna turn around and abandon the song, that is, at best, bad manners. At best. Because you have screwed that song's chances of being cut by another artist. Because again, there is this favoritism toward artists who write their own songs. There, there are a lot of odd narratives about the music industry. And sometimes the person who wrote the song is not the best messenger to deliver it. I think we can all agree upon that. So it does cut revenues in half. And then I even read that some songwriters have considered suing over it, but they don't want to sue that artist and destroy the relationship. And they also don't want to be marked as the person who has sued over this. So I think it's just, you need to come back in an artist and be like, that wasn't cool. That's, it's not okay. And here's why. And I think if you're going to put something up on TikTok, you have to either be ready to cut it, or, you know, like, be willing, because you have to understand the consequences of introducing a song to the public.

J. Xander:

I mean, it's just, it's a tricky subject, because, we all want the song to take off. But it's exactly what you said. If all that work went into it, and there's other people involved, it shouldn't really matter what the algorithm says at that point. Like, that song should be put out.

Nina:

And the algorithm's not the best test of a good song. It isn't. It's a terrible test. Like, J, you were saying it's all subjective on hashtags and time of day, and then, it could just be poor quality audio, and that's why people don't want to listen to it, or, again, that could be not the right artist for that song, and that's why it's not catching on. There are a number of reasons. I also read about this one artist, they're independent And they went super, super viral. They had been posting their song for a year. They had been posting the chorus, the chorus, the chorus. It wasn't until they posted the bridge that it took off.

J. Xander:

Right, I was just gonna say that sometimes it could just be like the lyrics of a certain section are more usable as like a sound. on TikTok, so that's why, or it just, it is something that more people connect to, you know, you never know, so.

Nina:

Yeah, I think it's much more desirable to have a sound go viral than it is to have one video go viral.

J. Xander:

Yeah.

Nina:

You want people to be able to use it, and that's just something to keep in mind to all of our independent artists at home who are doing their own marketing. Sky, do you have any input on, like, what contributes to virality?

Sky:

I think it's a myriad of things. I think it could be posting time. It could be what hashtags you're using, right? Kind of like you were saying before. It could genuinely also just be how connected you are with the song, how the song connects to others, things like that. Not saying that the song has to be always for other people. But in the sense of, can others really relate to it as well, and does it fit some narrative that is appealing or attractive or inspiring to someone? I do think a lot of the viral songs, or songs that I've seen go very viral, up to even landing on charts viral, those songs really have been very, like, if you analyze them, they're songs that connect with people. Whether they're super personal, like, driver's license, or they're kind of raunchy and really cool, like, Unholy, right? Like, two very different types of storytelling, but both went extremely viral for good reason, I think. I feel like virality is nothing that you should chase, ever. What I would do is like, when I'm posting about songs or music, I post it for my followers, and then, you know, what happens, happens. I'm pretty sure at one point or another, we've all experienced like, a viral video, and we're kind of like, oh, that's cool

J. Xander:

And then you forget about it, like... Two days later.

Nina:

Yeah. Unless the sound is, is going viral. Which is something we've touched on. Sky, that's a really good point about how independent artists use TikTok. I have seen a lot of people say you should treat it more like a diary because you just can't predict virality and what TikTok really rewards is consistency. And you should treat it as like a behind the scenes. This is how I do my work, this is what I do, and reaching out to followers and announcements and stuff like that. J, you've talked about how independent artists can use TikTok and you've specifically brought up a couple really good examples because not all of us have label power to pop off with or a huge following starting out. What are some of the brands that you've seen that work really, really well with TikTok?

J. Xander:

Yeah. So one artist I'd like to focus on because there are, there. Branding is very concise and pretty consistent throughout the entirety of their channel and page is Iniko, who has been TikTok famous for quite some time now. Their song Jericho is a banger. I, that was my playlist pick a couple of weeks ago. I still have it on repeat. But even that song matches their brand perfectly and I'll explain why in a little bit. So there are really Three ways that you can capture people's attention on TikTok, or really any platform. A hook, so to speak. It can be something visual, like a really cool aesthetic look that someone has. And Iniko has that. They have weird face paintings sometimes that are really cool. Very distinct hair colors and kind of a spacey, like, just intergalactic god kind of look to them. So immediately that's intriguing. You see that and you're like, Oh, I want to see what that person's doing. The second way is audio, like a really distinct sound of some kind and Iniko uses their voice for that, of course. Because you know, as musicians we kind of already have a checkmark on that one, so we don't have to think too hard about it. And they have a very distinct voice as well, something that is instantly recognizable. And the third way is captions. So just putting the lyrics on the screen is very effective for catching the attention of people. Because sometimes people will actually watch TikTok or just different platforms with the sound off. Just because they can't always play it with the sound on in public.

Nina:

I do that all the time. All the time.

J. Xander:

Yeah, I do too. Um, especially with TikTok. You want to be careful what you, what kind of shit you play, you know, in the workplace with that. Cause... That stuff is wild sometimes.

Nina:

Yeah, if you're on your coffee break, you know, you don't, you want to be real careful about what coworker overhears what, right?

J. Xander:

Yeah, precisely. There you go. But Iniko does that in all of their content. So they already have the look established. They're singing in most of their videos and then they post all of the lyrics as well. So I think it is a perfect example at branding done well by an independent artist because I mean, it worked out for them because their tagline now is I'm going on tour in Europe. The link is below for dates. And that's a long way to go for somebody that started off by singing covers in their room. Good for them.

Nina:

That's fantastic. Iniko, They have such great brand discipline. Their every video, I mean, it has something in common, like it's all dedicated to their brand. I know I have experimented a lot with TikTok and I don't really know if I'm very happy with how my brand is reflected in my social media profiles. And I think you're touching on something really important that. Independent artists need to be more thoughtful about their brand on social media because with the demand of how many times a day you're supposed to post on Instagram, and then you're supposed to do this on YouTube, and then you're supposed to do this on TikTok. It's really confusing and it gets really frustrating to put out consistent content. Skylar, what do you think would be helpful in independent artists trying to stick to consistency within their social media profiles?

Sky:

It's funny that you asked me that because I think I'm probably the least consistent out of the three of us. But my advice for that question would be planning. I personally, like when I have gone on long streaks of being very consistent with social media, I had a plan. And the plan... Was not just oh, here's the content for Monday, Wednesday, Friday. The plan was like, okay, what kind of content, what type of content, what ideas, how does that align with my style? Or does it veer off a little bit, but still make sense? You know, I don't know, all these little nitty gritty details, I think, uh, really go into it. So being consistent, really. matters, but it's also don't let it give you so much anxiety that you don't post at all, which is what I do sometimes, and I get very overwhelmed. So even if it's just like two days a week, that's more consistent than doing it for six weeks and then falling off for six more weeks.

Nina:

Yeah, today I literally posted about my dog just to post something and in those terms I feel like that is applicable to like my brand larger. I am a dog person and that is a little bit more personal but I, you know, sometimes I'm just posting just to post and that's probably not a good idea. I should probably niche down as they say.

J. Xander:

I think you want to go in with a purpose whenever you're posting something and think about like, who do you want to see this and how does it reflect my values as an artist? Cause there was a while I was posting a lot of like educational stuff, but I decided to steer away from that because I decided I don't really want to be known as like a music teacher guru online. I want to be an artist first. So you want to keep in mind it's just like what is your end goal ultimately I think when you're posting.

Nina:

I think a lot of us tend to, speaking of myself specifically, tend to chase virality and we want the likes and we want the instant gratification. I have personally fallen for that.

J. Xander:

Yeah.

Nina:

Um, I went viral for a video. That I really didn't want to go viral for. I knew it was gonna be funny. I thought it might get a couple hundred likes. Um, it has since blossomed. I've actually, put it on friends and followers only. But Sky texted me that her friend texted her about this video. Like, everybody had seen this whole saga that I had posted about a really annoying friend. And... Everybody wants to go viral until they do. It gave me so much anxiety that this was what my account was gonna be about now and it really upset me and that's why I've actually wound up like putting the videos on friends and followers only. And it's not because I'm ashamed of anything that I've said. I want to put that out there. I would say that to that person's face. But I was just tired of tik tok pushing that out and that's not the narrative that I want behind Nina Blu. So it wasn't embarrassing or anything like that. It's just something that I regret not sticking to my brand about. I also recently was really frustrated with an experience I had in the hospital when I was having anaphylactic reaction. Those are my two most watched videos, and what I've noticed about them is when people can comment their own stories, that's when videos really take off, and the algorithm will keep pushing it. People want to tell their own story in the comment and people who are frustrated are often the ones who comment. This is why a lot of people make videos that are purposefully inflammatory, we call it rage farming, and I wasn't trying to do that, but... These are the results that I've had of just like seeking virality and it's, it's not a good idea. I wish I had been more brand disciplined previous because now TikTok's not pushing my content as much as it was at the time. And so it was a really short lived success that I regret quite a lot. My best advice is to try and get people to comment. That's not always possible. But I mean, that is a great angle to come at with. And then my other advice is talk at 1. 25 your usual speed because the faster you talk on TikTok, usually the better the video does. Those are the only things that I've noticed with my experience with going moderately viral.

Sky:

Well, um, also I think it, it, you know, our entire conversation here really goes to show that TikTok is very beneficial for artists and musicians and songwriters and all that good stuff, but there's definitely a right way to do it and there's definitely a wrong way to do it. So, if you're gonna be using it, you know, being, being fair to others, right? Being fair to your other songwriters, your other fellow producers, making sure you have all the permissions and stuff, but then also making sure you're putting stuff out there that you want to be known for, not just, you know, something that you think relatable but isn't really like what you're main goal and main focus is.

Nina:

And I have to say, after going viral, not a single damn person who liked that video went and streamed any of my music. That did not happen. I didn't get a bump in streams because it was so unrelated to what I do. So it wasn't a good idea. I also think chasing trends is not a great idea, but there is always a great way to adapt a trend to your own personal brand. And I think that's really the only time you should engage with one. J, you were saying a lot about this earlier, especially in regards to a specific artist.

J. Xander:

Yeah, so one other person I want to talk about is an artist, one of my favorite TikTokers named Adanna Duru. And she does a really good job of adapting the trends and making them all centered around her voice, which I think is brilliant because it's like there's millions of trends out there that you can change and adapt, but you want to keep it focused on what it is that your end goal is. I mean, she wants to be a singer, so Logically, it makes sense to whatever, it is that she's posting on her page, even if it's like something done for shits and giggles to center it around, to be centered around, you know, how great of a singer she is. So I'm going to play this little clip here, which this is, this is a trend that she actually kind of did herself, which is music at white people clubs be like

Adanna:

unapologetic when we fuck up the night, Fuck up tonight! Last Friday Night! Yeah, we dance on table tops!

J. Xander:

Very accurate too.

Sky:

I'm fucking dead. I love that.

J. Xander:

Yeah. And she, she has tons of things like that. One of my favorites that she also does as well, she'll put up like a series of emojis and she'll have a song playing in the background and she'll sing in the voice of like each one of those emojis, like a cowboy or the one that she always does is like the pop singer. Um, so she'll sing something like, uh, Kill Bill and she'll be like, I might kill my ex. With just like the most extremely annoying, like nasal sound ever. It still works in her brand because it's still all about her voice. I think I saw one she did the other day where she was just singing a song about. Tostitos or something like that. And the whole point was just to encourage people to put harmonies over it.

Nina:

That's hilarious. And what a great way to encourage people to interact with your brand and have fun with it too. Like, because we've, we've talked a lot about like some very serious. topics. At the end of the day, it is social media. It's not that serious, and you should have fun with it. And, like, she clearly is. J, you and I have talked about this in regard to a book that we've both read, Big Magic, about take your art seriously, but don't take yourself too seriously. At the end of the day, like, we get to write songs. At the end of the day, you get to write and create, and that's really joyful, and you should always look for the humor and the fun in it.

J. Xander:

Yeah, first of all, if you're an artist or creative person of any kind, and you have not read Big Magic or listened to the audiobook, go do that, like, immediately. Because Right now. Yeah, even if you do not like Elizabeth Gilbert or anything she's ever done before.

Nina:

I'm not an Eat, Pray, Love person.

J. Xander:

I'm not either.

Nina:

Personally.

J. Xander:

I'm not either, but Big Magic slaps. It is a great book. But one of the most important things I read from there is this notion of like, some artists will think that it's this noble and very cool thing to hold in like a bunch of ideas and content that they just like never release to the world. And she's basically like, I don't think that's noble. I think that's stupid. I think that person's afraid

Nina:

That book was so full of just beautiful nuggets of great advice, and I think about her all the time, and honestly, like, if I could meet her and just give her the world's biggest hug for that book. It is a pep talk whenever I really need a pep talk, especially about not taking myself too seriously or being afraid to post that idea. You know, sometimes we're just, throwing darts in the dark and whatever sticks, sticks.

J. Xander:

Yeah, what is it she said? At the end of it, she's like, don't be a martyr for your art, be a trickster.

Nina:

That's right.

J. Xander:

And adapt to the changes, which is perfect for this analogy of TikTok, where it is all about kind of being stupid sometimes, in all honesty

Nina:

Be a trickster, not a martyr. Some words of wisdom. Okay guys, for our final segment, we're giving our weekly Playback Picks. J, what is your Playback Pick of the Week?

J. Xander:

So I'm picking a song called Both by Tiesto, BIA, and 21 Savage. And, honestly, there's no, like, deep poetic reason as to why I just chose this song. But, like, when I hit play on it, because I keep up with Spotify's Mint playlist all the time, which is, like, the big dance EDM one, just so I can, like, see kind of what people are doing. But as soon as I hit play on that, I was like, this is... This is a bop. This is something I've been waiting for a long time. I very rarely get excited by a song, but it's just, it's all there. The instrumental, hooky, the vocals, it starts right on the chorus. The two rap sections are great. They're full of personality. So it's a fun song. This actually feels like something that Timbaland You know, it's kind of adjacent to that sound that he was putting out in like the early 2000s. So, yeah, check out both.

Nina:

I feel like if Tiesto heard that endorsement, he would be elated. Like, that's the only response.

J. Xander:

Yeah, and Timbaland's my favorite producer, so I don't say that lightly.

Nina:

There you go, there you have it. Ringing endorsement from J Xander. Sky, what is your playback pick of the week?

Sky:

Mine is a song called Trust Me by Lola Blanc. Um, I really love this song, and if you like any sort of Lana Del Rey, type music, very cinematic style, luscious, uh, vocals, all that stuff. I think you'll really like this. The track is super ethereal. I feel like it, it's a long track, um, but it, it really kind of brings you into a world. And when I say long track, I mean, it's like four minutes.

Nina:

That's long.

Sky:

But it's long. It's really long. And interestingly enough, I found it on the Spotify Salt playlist. Which is like one of my favorite, Spotify playlists of all time. And, uh, it's interesting because it's a four minute song and it landed on there. I was like, wow, this is interesting. And, I looked up more on Lola Blanc and if anyone has time to read into like her bio, like even her Wikipedia bio. It's so interesting, like, where she was born in Germany, and she had like a CIA dad, and she moved here. She's modeled for like Vera Wang or something like that, and like, done film, done acting, like everything. I'm like, how are they

Nina:

Renaissance woman.

Sky:

Literally, like the epitome of a multi hyphenate creative. I'm like, that is amazing. I don't know how I'm just hearing about you, but it's a great song, so.

Nina:

I love a good cinematic vibe, so we'll definitely be giving that a try. We joke a lot about 4 minutes being very long. I'm sure a lot of people don't think that, but we have all been trained that in the era of streaming, 3:30 is kind of the magic spot, unless you really have something to say. And Sky, if this wound up on Salt, that is high praise for a 4 minute song.

Sky:

It really is. I mean, like, it's one of my playlists that I look to a lot for, like, alt pop and whatnot. And it's like, most songs on there are between two and three minutes, like three minutes is long. Um, so, it's pretty, it says a lot about the song. It's very, it's very pretty though. Um, and it takes a few listens. You'll like it. Trust me, you'll like it.

Nina:

So, that's like four really good suggestions from the two of you for our listeners this week, because not only did you guys give them two songs, you gave them two really good Spotify playlists to check out. Those are both really high quality playlists, both Mint and Salt. Highly suggest. They are great at capturing where that genre is at the moment, for sure.

Sky:

I love how both playlists are like, food.

J. Xander:

I was just thinking that

Nina:

They're chimichurri, whatever. Alright guys, my playback pick of the week, my friend Jeff Popkin is part of a duo with Cole Hammock called Joy Boy, and they released a single a few weeks ago called Trying. I promise he doesn't know that I'm endorsing this song right now. I love the song. It's extremely personal and very relatable about being with the wrong person, but trying anyway. It also speaks to a lot of the exhaustion that we feel trying in our daily lives. Like, I'm trying at work, and I'm trying at home, and I'm trying with this person, I'm trying to make it work, and... I joked earlier about are we all Okay? Because we were talking about the number one song on Billboard right now. It's such an emotional song. This one, it's just a good vibe. It's a good, relatable vibe. It's a little bit heartbreaking, but not so much that you can't listen to it over and over and over again. So everybody go stream, Trying, go check out their socials. They have some really, really good covers. They're both very talented musicians. So congrats to Jeff and Cole. And again, the name is Joy Boy. with a song called Trying.

J. Xander:

I love that. I love that band name. That's really cool.

Sky:

I know!

Nina:

And if you know Jeff, that fits him very well. I've never met Cole before. But I mean, if they're working together, it's got to work for both of them, right? It just makes me want to meet Cole.

Sky:

What genre is the song?

Nina:

I would say it's got like an 80s pop vibe, but definitely repurposed for today. And it's very heavy guitar. Jeff is a really excellent guitarist, so. And I say this as someone who drunkenly sang my church as he played it. It was a good time.

Sky:

You'll have to tell that to us, uh, on, on, on, off air, sorry, not on air.

Nina:

Yeah, I'm sure my guitar weeps missing him because he was so much more talented at playing it than I was.

Sky:

No, I, I disagree. I remember one time we were drunk and you were playing Jolene on the guitar. It sounded pretty damn good.

Nina:

Oh, it was like a half time. Okay, we're getting into the weeds, listeners. Alright guys, do we have any final comments for the week?

Sky:

Get drunk with Nina and watch her play Dolly Parton on the guitar. All hail the queen, Dolly Parton.

Nina:

Hail Dolly, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

Sky:

She is blessed, I love her. Can we please do like a special episode, Dolly Parton only?

Nina:

I feel like we'll never be able to surpass the incredible podcast of Dolly Parton's America, but I think we can give it a try.

Sky:

No, no, no, no, not, not, we just talk about our love of Dolly Parton. We're not trying to compete.

Nina:

No, have you seen that TikTok of like, what could you talk about for 30 minutes straight if someone offered you a million dollars? I was like, Dolly Parton. I could talk about Dolly Parton for 30 minutes straight. No stopping.

Sky:

30 minutes? I could do 30 hours.

Nina:

Amen.

J. Xander:

It's gonna take forever to upload to the channel, so I don't know if that's a good idea. 30 hours? 30 hour podcast. 30 hours. That's it.

Nina:

J, you started with that and I 100 percent thought that that's how you were telling us to shut up in a very nice way.

J. Xander:

Oh, no.

Sky:

Oh, I think he was.

Nina:

J, any final thoughts for the week?

J. Xander:

Uh, no. I think everyone should get drunk with Nina at some point, though. That sounds awesome.

Nina:

Guys, I don't know if my liver can handle that, but I can certainly give it the old college try.

J. Xander:

Alright.

Nina:

Keyword there being college. All right, guys. Thank you for joining us for this very chaotic episode, which is in theme with talking about TikTok, I have to say.

Sky:

Yeah.

J. Xander:

It's on brand.

Nina:

We hope you enjoyed it. We'll see you next week. Go create some good in the world. Bye y'all.

Sky:

Bye!

People on this episode

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J. Xander

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Nina Blu

Host