Playback the Music Podcast
Join independent artists and songwriters Nina Blu and J. Xander as they talk about what's trending in modern music and how songwriters and producers can use different tools and techniques in their own work. Each week we give a recap of the Billboard charts and what you need to know about the music industry today.
Playback the Music Podcast
All About Hooks
Dive into the craft of songwriting with hosts Nina Blu and J Xander! This week, we explore the intricate process of writing hooks, both lyrically and instrumentally. Discover the different tools and techniques songwriters can use to craft unforgettable melodies and lyrics that captivate listeners.
We also touch on Taylor Swift's new album, The Tortured Poet's Department, and why we believe the reviews have been mixed. Join us as we analyze why this highly anticipated release has received mixed reviews and share our thoughts on its standout tracks and overall impact on the music scene.
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Welcome to Playback, the podcast all about what's hot and trending in music right now. I am singer songwriter Nina Blu.
J.:And I am singer songwriter J Xander.
Nina:J, do you know where pirates buy their hooks?
J.:No.
Nina:At the second hand store.
J.:Please don't skip this episode. We have a lot of, we have a lot of great info for the rest of this. Please disregard Nina's corny joke.
Nina:I haven't made a really bad joke in a really long time. All right, so guys, this is our episode all about hooks, the different kinds, and our personal favorite examples. Disregarding my bad hook at the beginning. J, do you have anything that you wanna start off with?
J.:I mean, I guess we should probably define what a hook is for the audience, um, just because I think that there's a lot of misunderstandings about it. Even I used to think that a hook and a chorus were the same thing. Do you want to talk about why that's not the case?
Nina:Well, to put it simply, a hook is anything that's designed to catch people's attention and it can be placed at any point in any kind of art form. Obviously we're songwriters, so we're going to talk about our specific medium, but as songwriters we use hooks repetitively to keep a listener's attention and it's just something thematically, it's maybe a motif or an instrumental, something that pulls the audience back in and gets them re engaged.
J.:Right, and we're talking about songwriting, but it exists basically any form of music that I think endures. I just saw an opera the other day, and even that has hooks in it, even though you might not call it that, you might use the fancier, bougie word motif, it's the same shit, okay? It's the same thing, it's a musical idea that repeats during the course of something. But I think like, the big takeaway is, a hook can be, like, it's not an entire section of a song, it's just, it can be like a literal millisecond of something. Like, one of the ones that always Sticks with me is Ariana's little yeah, that to me is a hook because, I mean, you're always gonna remember it and you know, like where it comes from usually.
Nina:And it's, that's really like identifiable with Ariana. Another, I guess it's also a hook is, um, it's Britney, bitch. Because you, you know, and you're waiting for it and you love that line. We have said so many times on this podcast that a hook can be absolutely anything. It really can. It can just be, it can be a rhythm. It can be anything that keeps a listener's attention. There's so many different kinds of hooks. TikTok has dubbed certain kinds of hooks underlicks, which is such an annoying term to me because it's just an instrumental hook that compliments. The vocal melody and so someone's like, oh add under licks to your Melodies or to your songs and that'll make them take off and it's like bro, you're just talking about hooks
J.:Yeah, people always want to reinvent the wheel what that is. But yeah, I mean the reason why TikTok songs blow up is because it's a, it's a hook, right? I mean, that's all it is. It's just a really catchy little soundbite that you can play over and over again. If you sing part of a song back to somebody and they say, and they can, you know, Instantly tell you what the song is. That's pretty much tells you that it's a hook. That's like a good Yeah, that's the test for it.
Nina:I've heard multiple DJ sets where an instrumental line will come in and the whole crowd Immediately knows exactly what that song is,
J.:Right
Nina:Even in terms of just the way that one plays chords, if you hear the opening lines to Free Fallin by Tom Petty, there is no doubt in your mind when you hear those three chords in the way that they are played. That that is that song. It's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. The whole song's written on three notes. I love it, but that's another rant for another time. So most of the time when people think of hooks, they think of lyrical hooks, but we're also going to go into some melodic hooks and production and arrangement hooks that you guys can use to improve your writing that we try and use all the time. But I mean, really the best songs have hooks.
J.:That's how you remember them, so yeah, for sure.
Nina:Anything can be a hook, but starting with like some lyrical that you might even find in some, in some poetry and a couple of items that you would find even in speech writing when I've studied and taught rhetoric, um, are some of these like devices that you and I have both used and that I think people think of most when they think of hooks. So starting with anaphora, J, do you want to explain what that is?
J.:Yeah, an aphora is just basically a fancy way of saying that the very beginning part of your phrase is the same throughout an entire section. So, a really good example of it, and the one that's like instantly recognizable that's not a song is I Had a Dream by Martin Luther King. I almost said I dreamed a dream. Yeah. Um, but that speech because he's repeating the beginning of the phrase and the title a lot. But the song example that we have here is, uh, If I Were a Boy because it does that pretty much the entire time. It's impressive how they were able to write that song in that way. Another one that does that a lot is Because You Love Me by Celine Dion. That's another extreme example of anaphora basically the entire time.
Nina:And the thing about anaphora is it's not just repeating at the beginning of the phrase. It's also how those first few words or that first word might change based on what follows I think is what actually makes anaphora an interesting hook and so instead of like just going for the repetitive element Looking for how does this change the message? So one of my favorite examples of anaphora is Crazy. Popularized by Patsy Cline. Written by Willie Nelson. I think it was like his big break was that Patsy Cline sang this song. And I'm crazy for trying. I'm crazy for, I'm crazy for loving you. And it just, it breaks your heart with every line. Because it, and especially the way that it follows the melodies, it just kind of like falls apart. I'm crazy for trying, I'm crazy for crying, and I'm crazy for loving you. And the way that that's repeated, you get more to the story, you understand a bit more about this heartbreak. I think it's, I think it's brilliant.
J.:I think the tricky thing with this one to remember is also that like you have to, yeah, you do have to make that change, but you have to be smart about how you put them together. The order of these changes, because if you were to start with, I'm crazy for loving you, it wouldn't be as impactful, right?
Nina:Another great one is If I Ain't Got You, Alicia Keys.
J.:Mm hmm.
Nina:And one of the catchiest ones, which actually uses anaphora and epistrophe, which we have to talk about next, is Ain't No Mountain High Enough.
J.:Oh, yeah. I didn't even think about that one. That's a good one.
Nina:Yep. It's a great one. So epistrophe is the exact opposite of anaphora and I know it sounds like we're talking about like Greek deities but no, these are actual terms that people use all the time. Um, epistrophe is the opposite in that every line ends in either the same word or the same phrase and this one is so commonly used and it can actually It's a little more difficult I think than anaphora because it's harder to keep it interesting because we as humans we like Rhyme, we like mixing things up. We don't like everything ending in a neat perfect box every time Because it doesn't lead into the next phrase. So while this one's the most common I think it's also the hardest to use in an interesting way.
J.:Yeah, I was just gonna say the same thing It's like this one's really hard to make rhyme, but the example I had here was You Learn by Alanis Morissette But what I think is really cool The thing with epistrophe is I feel like you can't do it for the entire duration of the song, like you could theoretically with anaphora, so even in You Learn, um, she uses anaphora. In the verses and then epistrophe in the chorus, which I think is a very smart way to do it
Nina:And you can only use it in one section of your song
J.:Yeah, I agree,
Nina:Because it does get boring after a while. So it has its place and again that's just about the concept of the song and how it fits within it. But yeah, epistrophe is is hard, but it's it's in Ain't No Mountain High Enough.
J.:Very cool
Nina:There's that great punchline to keep me from getting to you, right? That this, and it's also parallelism moving into our next topic, but I mean, well, that song's just brilliant from start to finish. You can't beat Marvin Gaye.
J.:No, and you don't want to try either, because if not, his family might sue you. So yeah, let's stay away.
Nina:Very litigious yes.
J.:Yeah, be careful.
Nina:All right, so parallelism is one of those that's really hard to define, and it's hard to put your finger on. It's, Almost an echoing in the form and structure of the line or an echoing in the sentiment of the line. My example that I have here is Katy Perry's Hot and Cold. You're hot then you're cold, you're yes then you're no, you're in then you're out, you're up then you're down. So you have that like very repetitive structure over and over within these lines that have like the same meaning to them but it's a different metaphor each time and that song is just so catchy and so fun like it makes me miss old Katy Perry songs.
J.:I know. I saw this great post somewhere the other day where it was just like um, I think Katy Perry needs to remember that she's Katy Perry. She's pop royalty. She needs to give us, honestly, she needs to get her ass in the studio back with Bonnie McKee. And they need to give us a Teenage Dream Part 2. Like, if Nikki, yeah, if Nikki can give us a Pink Friday 2 after all these years, we can get a second Teenage Dream. I don't care how old she is.
Nina:Katy deserves a second Teenage Dream.
J.:Yeah. I don't care how old she is at this point. Do it anyway.
Nina:Who cares? She looks fabulous. Who gives a fuck how old somebody is? She wasn't a teenager when she wrote Teenage Dream.
J.:Seriously.
Nina:But that's kind of the fun of it, right? It was like that nostalgic feel to it, and there was so much to play with even within that. But yeah, she needs to get back in the studio with Bonnie McKee and give us another one, because that was the era of Katy Perry. Like, I can't believe Teenage Dream did not win a Grammy. Like, that is truly one of the best pop albums.
J.:She hasn't won a single Grammy yet, but that, I think that's another conversation for another day because I could talk about that all day.
Nina:Yeah, I mean, honestly, oh, that album was amazing. My other example of parallelism that I have is the creepiest one, which is The Police, Every Breath You Take.
J.:I'm just gonna say it, I hate this song.
Nina:I don't like it either.
J.:I know, I know, I know it's like one of those like very songwriter y songs that like every songwriter is supposed to like, you know? Um, like that and Both Sides Now and like a lot of Bob Dylan tunes. I do not like this song.
Nina:I don't like the subject. I think there's a lot of good in it that you can learn from. So the parallelism of it, the um, the anaphora of it, the structure, the melody, the way that like the sections Like work together, but are also like they're so good. There are so many great things about this song to like not throw the baby out with the bath water But at the same time, it's fucking creepy. I'm sorry I one time went on a date and this song came on and he's like I think this is one of the most romantic songs ever I was like I don't think we can date in the future if you think that like watching my every breath is romantic because that says stalker to me.
J.:Yeah Yeah Yeah, but a so anyway, um, I'm happy you you define this one too because even though I put it on our list I was scared of Having to do that also because it's It's tricky. It's like when it's one of those things like once you hear it, you're like, oh, okay, that makes sense for a songwriter to do, but it's just difficult to put into words. Um, but the example I put is Gotta Be by Desiree. It's a song from the 90s. You gotta be bad. You gotta be bold. You gotta be wiser. You gotta be cool. You gotta be calm. You gotta stay together. So basically, It's a string of you gotta be, so it starts with anaphora and then has three adjectives lines up, lined up, and then the very next phrase does the same thing. Um, so it's really about like, I think, copying what it is that you're putting these nouns, verbs, and adjectives, and just making sure that it has like a similar or exact same structure.
Nina:And what's interesting about parallelism is it can be within the same sentence. Like, you can pair phrases this together and have them be parallelism, with just commas. If you look at speeches, this happens all the time. JFK was a
J.:That's true.
Nina:Was so good with parallelism. In his inaugural address, it's all over the place and it works super, super well. It can be between sentences. It can be between paragraphs. It can be across an album. You can hear parallelism. Um, and so that's why it's hard to define is because it's kind of vague, but I think it's, it's always really satisfying, especially to listeners.
J.:Because there's this element of like literal symmetry to it, right? And then it sets you up perfectly to like do a different kind of line afterwards. After you've broken the pattern.
Nina:It's, and it makes, when you break the pattern, it makes that line so much punchier. And so I think that's why parallelism does a really good job of like setting up the the title of the song oftentimes. Is where we hear it. It's not going to be what is, the title is rarely going to be the parallelism element, but the parallelism will lead up to it. And that's always so satisfying, because it feels like a punchline.
J.:Yeah, that's true.
Nina:J, What's our next one on the list?
J.:Using numbers. Anytime that you use a number, or a phrase, a sequence of numbers in your songs, the human brain automatically, I don't know what it is, but it wants to follow along. There's just something about counting and remembering sequences of numbers that the brain automatically pays attention to. Um, so the, the hook that I have here is 8675309 um, or Jenny by Tommy Two Tone. And I bet that the minute that I say that you You almost have to sing it right. I have to stop myself just now from singing the way that they do. But there's also, uh, Chandelier by Sia I think is a really great example of that 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3 drink. But yeah, and this is, uh, there, another one I can think of is 3 6 5 or 365 by Zed and Katy Perry. Again, because it's just instantly is something that kind of wants to stick in your head.
Nina:It establishes a pattern, and you're right, and people like following patterns and people like a certain level of predictability. That's kind of the art of songwriting, is how predictable and how unpredictable do you want to be, how stable versus unstable. I don't think we've ever talked about that. Which is kind of what we were taught was stability versus instability. Like, instead of, trying to narrow down all of these emotions, what you're trying to do and play with is whether something feels really stable, so it's predictable. It has a predictable structure versus the instability, which makes things exciting and feel new. And how much of each do you want to have in a song? If you have like a really upbeat, happy song, you might have more stability and a few moments of instability just to keep it interesting. So this is part of the art of songwriting, right, is the subjectivity of it. My favorite use of numbers in a song is actually Wish You Were Gay by Billie Eilish, because it's one of the more interesting uses of numbers in a song that I've ever heard. So it's, baby I don't feel so good, six words you never understood, I'll never let you go, five words you'll never say, I laugh along like nothing's wrong, four days has never felt so long, if three's a crowd and two was us, one slipped away. I heard that and I was gagged. I was like, how old is she? This is insanely smart and such an interesting way to use numbers and she does, she repeats it again in verse two, but with difference. She says, is there a 12 step just for you? It's it's so, it's so brilliantly done. And so there, there are all kinds of ways that you can use numbers besides just counting that keep people engaged because we're wondering what's the next thing,
J.:Right, and there's also like a satisfying element to it too, right? Like once you find out, oh, okay, this is like what these numbers are leading up to.
Nina:Yeah, when it gets to one slipped away, oh, your whole, your whole heart goes, wow, that's, that's what we were building toward. It's very sad, but it's very satisfying at the same time. Um, I'd like to have an honorable mention for songs that use spelling. We talked about, I believe we talked about Aretha Franklin's Respect last time.
J.:R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Fuck yeah, we did.
Nina:Yeah, we did. The sound engineer said that he was on the floor when he first heard that bridge. That she wrote for, I believe it was her sister is actually credited with coming up with the spelling. But everybody knows that. Everybody waits for that bridge. That bridge is probably one of the best pieces of songwriting ever. Yeah. Just by spelling out the word.
J.:Mm hmm.
Nina:Brilliant. There's something so satisfying about, like, I'm going to spell it out for you.
J.:Mm hmm. I haven't tried this one before, have you?
Nina:No, I If I ever have the opportunity, I'm gonna take it, but that's one of those, like, you've gotta wait for it. But my sister and I I
J.:feel like Go ahead, sorry.
Nina:My sister and I were in the kitchen a few days ago. She's like, wait, how do you spell independent? And I remembered that Webby song and I went I N D E P E N D E N D.
J.:Uh, yeah, yeah.
Nina:There was also Glamorous by Fergie. G L A M O R O U S. So it's educational and fun.
J.:Yeah, I feel like with this one though, you kind of have to, your whole concept almost has to be around like the word you're spelling. Because Ariana uses it too in her song NASA, but that's kind of like the whole concept around that song is like floating through outer space with somebody and then that's like the payoff. So that's a trickier one to use I think, but it can work. But I also feel like it can go close to like nursery rhyme territory if you're not careful.
Nina:Which is another one that we're gonna talk about in just a minute, but real quick We're gonna finish on for our lyrical hooks on onomatopoeia, which is one of my favorite words to say onomatopoeia It's just so satisfying.
J.:Yes,
Nina:So that's just anything that Describes a noise, right? It's use of noise, but the word it's we all know what onomatopoeia is I just don't know how to describe it
J.:Yeah, it's basically a word that describes a noise, because, I mean, noises don't have distinct words that you can kind of categorize to them. The easiest example is, it's not in songwriting, but like, in comic books, when you see like an explosion or something, they'll write something like BAM. In big, bold words over top of it. Um, but for songwriting, the example that I have here is Padam Padam by Kylie Minogue. And one thing I think is really cool about the song is that you hear this kind of pulsing sound of the, the, the hook happening in the verses also, so it kind of builds up to this heart beating that you feel, uh, throughout the chorus section, which is what the song is about, right? Padam Padam literally just means the, the beating of your heart, the, the sound, uh, She's saying that it makes Yeah, and I think that's so satisfying that they kind of tease us with it And then the chorus is just that for the most part
Nina:And again like that's you came up with a hook An onomatopoeia hook and then you based the whole song around it The whole concept plays into that the prosody in that song is what made it so catchy. And that and that's why it was the song of Pride last year. I mean it was You It really it was everywhere and I I did not for one second get sick of it.
J.:I didn't either I was just listening to it the other day. Another one that does that similarly is Bidi Bidi Bom Bom by Selena, and I think a lot of people will probably say They'll list, they'll lie and say Como La Flora is their favorite Selena song, but I feel like for most people it's Bidi Bidi Bom Bom. Because it's it's the catchiest one, right? And it's just it's just such a cute song
Nina:It's a really easy karaoke song actually. So for those of you who are bilingual, it is an easy one. Um, so I have here one that's not nearly as much fun, but I think is one of the most satisfying uses of onomatopoeia, and it's Knockin on Heaven's Door, Bob Dylan. That knock, knock, knockin on heaven's door is so catchy.
J.:I didn't really think about that. That's a good point.
Nina:That's one of my favorite Dylan songs, and I know it's one of the most popular ones. Don't come for me, Dylan heads. Those people who're, Bob Dylan's the greatest songwriter ever. Yes, we know. Okay, moving on. Knock, knock, knockin on heaven's door is one of the reasons why he's considered one of the greatest songwriters ever. Because it is so interesting when you hear that.
J.:Yeah.
Nina:It's not just like, I'm knocking on heaven's door. No, it's the knock, knock, knockin There's something very raw about that, and I love it. It's so good.
J.:I'm struggling not to mention Katy Perry again, but the Bridge of Firework is like a great example too, right? Boom boom boom.
Nina:Oh, yeah. Sorry, you said bridge and I started thinking pre chorus. My brain short circuit.
J.:Is that the pre chorus?
Nina:No, it's it's the bridge You were correct.
J.:Okay, my bad. I was about to say.
Nina:No, you were absolutely correct I have here for onomatopoeia your fave Charlie XCX with Boom Clap the sound of my heart Yep, that's a good one as well as
J.:Yes
Nina:As well as Tik Tok by Kesha, Tick Tock on the clock, but the party don't stop.
J.:Oh, so there's also, that just made me think of What You Waitin For, Gwen Stefani.
Nina:Oh, that was such a good song.
J.:Yeah, which Megan Thee Stallion just sampled in BoA. And she used it in a really cool way too, but. Yeah, I feel Gwen Stefani gets a lot of hate, but she made a lot of great pop music back then. I'm sorry.
Nina:She made so much good pop music. I'm not even sorry about it. Listen, you can separate the art from the artist if they're just a little annoying, but it was the 2000s. So
J.:It was a different time.
Nina:Oh Speaking of Kesha. Did you hear she's permanently changing the line? The P Diddy line? She's gonna keep singing, um, I wake up in the morning singing Fuck P. Diddy.
J.:I mean, I feel like she kind of has to for like her brand and everything, right?
Nina:Yeah, and also it's just the right thing to do.
J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Nina:Oh boy. That's
J.:I don't think we should get into that. I think we should just move on.
Nina:Moving on. Yeah.
J.:So anyway,
Nina:Melodic hooks. So we mentioned nursery rhymes earlier. They are what is it? It's public domain nursery rhymes are all public domain. So it's great to steal melodies from or adapt melodies from or adapt concepts from. It's a cheap easy trick and it works You Almost every time because there's that nostalgia in the listener's brain that you already Pre established and then the catchiness of it. So I love the nursery rhyme melody thing. I've never used it
J.:I haven't either
Nina:I keep waiting for that moment when it like really makes sense to use it.But I mean, it's always satisfying like every time and I'm always like damn that's a good idea
J.:And this is this one this I feel like this one is tricky to use though because unlike some of the other ones that we talked about, I don't think this is one that you should base your song around. Because my favorite examples of it, like, Driver's License, it uses it in the bridge. It's an inter it sounds like Rover, Red Rover. And, like, Walk This Way that we talked about in our last episode. It uses it in kind of the pre chorus section, is what I would call that. But it's not based around the whole song. Thing I feel like if you do that like your whole concept is the nursery rhyme It's just gonna come across as a little corny.
Nina:It is The most famous example of using a nursery rhyme, however is uh, Metallica, Enter Sandman. I think is the most famous version because it uses the melody from Hush Little Baby and what an interpolation what I mean taking Hush Little Baby and turning it into a metal song. Fuck. Yeah, Metallica That's why that song is so lasting. It's so good.
J.:I agree. Yeah.
Nina:So one of our favorite things that we love to talk about, that we talk about often is the non lyric hook. We talk about this all the time. It's one of our, our favorite devices. It's one of our favorite things to use.
J.:Yeah. And this is one where I feel like very highbrow song, songwriters will like look down on, they'll be like, Oh, that's a dumb thing to put in a song. And then like. An hour later, they'll be singing it in their car, you know. What are some of your favorites of this one, Nina?
Nina:So my favorite that I thought of immediately was KT Tunstall's Big Black Horse and a Cherry Tree. And the, the, um, how it just keeps cycling through it. If you've ever seen her do that song live with a loop pedal, it is incredible. It's a video that everyone should look up. It's truly one of the best pieces of performance I think I've ever seen, especially like the first time that she performed it on live television when apparently she had written it like the week before or two weeks before or something like that. And but everybody knows that song just based on that quick little woohoo. It's so catchy. It keeps people listening. It's fun to sing along to, which songwriters, we need to talk about this because it's so sometimes it's just okay for something to be fun to sing along to. It's okay to write for your audience to have fun singing along to it. It doesn't always have to be deep. It can sometimes just be really fun and catchy.
J.:Yeah, I agree. And not every lyric has to be like a life changing or soul bearing moment. It's okay for music to just be fun also. That's kind of the whole point.
Nina:And if it works, it works.
J.:Mm hmm. Um One of my favorites and the one that I always think of when I think of non lyric hooks is Ra, Ra, uh, uh, from Bad Romance. It's just
Nina:The greatest non lyric hook of all time.
J.:I mean, it, I can't, what is better, what's out there that's better than that?
Nina:Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
J.:I don't know. And just like using her name in it to me makes it even like more brilliant. That whole song is so interesting to me.
Nina:That's possibly one of the best pop songs of all time.
J.:Yeah.
Nina:Like it. And that's a hard list to make. Um, I don't know if it, it should be on the 500. I was going through that, the list of 500 greatest songs of all time today, uh, on Rolling Stone. I can't remember if Bad Romance made it. I think that it did. It should. It's truly, I mean, that song is masterful on every level. It's so interesting.
J.:Yeah, and even, sure, you can hear that lyric and like think, oh, that's complete nonsense. That doesn't make any sense. But like once you hear it in the context of the entire song and remember like what the concept is, you're like, Oh, this is about somebody going crazy in a relationship. And then the very next section after it is like completely different melodically, right? So you have these really, really distinct sections in there that makes the song Brilliant. Fucking brilliant.
Nina:As a matter of fact, I don't want to mention anything else with a non lyric hook because that one is truly the best.
J.:So anyway moving on to riffs I think that one's pretty self explanatory but it's still a good one and this I think the only difference between this one is that it Usually I would put it on a word as opposed to just like whatever. A good example of it is Cruel Summer by Taylor Swift You I guess one of the reasons that I wanted to list this one though is because if you're going to put a riff on a specific word and do something fancy with it, just remember that you're spotlighting that word and you want to have it be something that's, you want to have it be an interesting word. That you're spotlighting. I, I do want to briefly touch on the 139 song by Normani because I was listening to it the other day and a lot of people were speculating as to why like it flopped. Sadly, I was pulling for her, but I think that the song
Nina:Fellow Houston girl, I was pulling for her like no one else.
J.:Yeah, a lot of people blame the marketing but I also just think that it's not a very fully realized song. Like putting the most interesting part of Of your song in your chorus the riff on the word shit is really really weird You should be putting it on the title. Usually I feel like if you're gonna do that or I'm also go ahead
Nina:I'm also gonna take a minute to say that's also a terrible business decision. Because we have all heard like bad dubs bad bleeps bad you know subs. I heard um, I heard the clean version of Beyonce's Jolene the other day and it's, um, I'm a Creole Banjee chick from Louisiane and it took out the alliteration of banjee bitch and I was like, I hate this. It made my my skin crawl. I I was like, no, let Beyonce do whatever she wants including cuss on pop radio, please If you're gonna build your hook on a bad word, uh, I got news for you in pop radio It's probably not gonna happen. Now, I'm not saying don't do it I'm just saying that's sometimes when business enters the writing room, right? And, and, and that is going to affect how you market that single if you want it to be a single. If it's that catchy, I mean, go for it. But it is oftentimes not that catchy. It's not catchy enough to, to not sub it out for something more interesting. Like you were saying, like, why would you build the hook on shit, especially for a pop artist, especially for a pop artist that you're trying to get radio play for.
J.:Yeah, this is not really related, but they played Low by Lil Jon in my gym the other day, like the censored version of it. It's the funniest thing ever. It was literally just, half the song was silent. It was great.
Nina:Terrible! It's, it ruins it, right?
J.:Yeah, it was wild.
Nina:Honestly, it, no, it always is. Um, so for riffs, one that I thought of, this might be a non lyric hook. I considered it a riff because it's between lyrics. I don't know. This is up for discussion. Is Living on a Prayer, Bon Jovi? Living on a prayer.
J.:I would say that's a riff.
Nina:I would say that's a riff
J.:too. It's on a lyric, yeah.
Nina:And that takes that. To a whole other level. Like, everybody knows that whoa. Everybody knows that huuuuuh. And the way that it, like, lifts the song, it's so that you feel, like, that prayer moment. I mean, it's brilliant. It's, like, that's one of the greatest songs of all time for a reason.
J.:Oh, for sure. I mean, it's an instant, instant hook.
Nina:That song has gotten me through a really rough treadmill workout.
J.:Oh, really?
Nina:I'm not ashamed to admit it.
J.:That's funny. I have to listen to music while I run, or do any kind of cardio.
Nina:Oh, have to.
J.:It keeps you alive.
Nina:I can, I can listen to a podcast while I'm lifting, but if I'm doing cardio,
J.:I'm the same way.
Nina:It has to be 140 BPM or higher, I'm sorry.
J.:Yeah.
Nina:Like, I need to be able to get down to it. Another riff that I wanted to mention, this might actually be a non lyric hook. And again, it's subjective is Single Ladies, Beyonce. Uh, uh, oh, uh, uh, uh, uh, oh. Everybody knows that. I want to say that's a non lyric hook.
J.:I want to say that's a non lyric also.
Nina:Yeah, because it's built on whoa. Oftentimes non lyric hooks are built on those kind of, like, whoa, oh, ah, kind of sounding things.
J.:Yeah, they're very similar. I think the main difference is like, if you're gonna do, to keep in mind with like riffs, is don't put it on like a really weak or weird word, like we said earlier.
Nina:Yeah, pick your moments, choose them wisely, I think is
J.:Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
Nina:Absolutely, the best, the best policy around riffs, because we learned very early on, I think this was like lesson one, that you don't want to put an interesting riff or melody on the word the. Yeah. Cause you've just lost the entire audience.
J.:And yeah, it's very true.
Nina:So the next one that we wanted to talk about was word echo or call and response. That's another one of those, those that are like really similar to one another.
J.:What, what would you, okay. What, what are your examples of it? Cause I think I feel the same way about like call and response and word echo, but I didn't really know how to define them concretely, to be honest. They seem really similar to me also.
Nina:They seem similar. I, it just depends on the song. So my example of word echo, this is actually canon, which is fun, but it's The Chain Fleetwood Mac. Yeah. And you will never break the chain, never break the chain. Like the way that that moves and works, I feel like is word echo and both call and response at the same time, because they keep repeating that word, the chain, the chain, the chain. And, and you really feel like you can't escape it, which is. Part of what makes the song so brilliant.
J.:Yeah. This is one sometimes also where it just can be interesting to do with your background vocals. I think just to highlight like a specific word when you have a moment of space. Like the example I had was Run Away With Me by Carly Rae Jepsen. Stuck on my body, body. I'm sick of the party, party. Even though it sounds a little corny to say out loud, in like the context of the song itself, like musically speaking, I think that's pretty, pretty interesting. Um, and it kind of just accentuates important words, also. Another good example, well I don't know if it's good, but I like the song, it's Nasty by Tinashe. Been a nasty girl, nasty.
Nina:That's great, it's so good. Or Dirrty, Christina Aguilera, we just talked about that. Did we talk about that last week or the week before?
J.:I think it was last week.
Nina:We mentioned
J.:it. Too dirty to clean that act up.
Nina:Love that. It just, it's so funny every time. Call and response is, honest to God, one of my guiltiest pleasures. And I look forward to the day that I have a call and response. But I mean, if you're, if you want to talk about call and response songs, there are so many that just went like super nuclear, major mega hits. So, Come and Get Your Love, Redbone, Happy, Pharrell Williams, Wanna Be Startin Somethin Michael Jackson, Turn Down for What, Pour Some Sugar on Me, Work It, Missy Elliott, one of the best ones, Let's Go Crazy, Prince, Gold Digger, Kanye West, Drop It Like It's Hot. OPP, Naughty by Nature, and possibly the hookiest song of all time that maybe we should have talked about in advance because I think it uses every single one of these is Uptown Funk by Mark Ronson featuring Bruno Mars.
J.:Oh yeah.
Nina:That uses a hook in every section and the brilliance of that song is it's just a bunch of choruses linked together.
J.:And what's funny is that it's that what's brilliant about that song too and like why that works for that is because like the concept of that song is very vague but at the end of the day, it's about music, right? Yeah, so it's really just about having fun with hooks So it totally makes sense that a song like that isn't it doesn't have this deeper meaning to it It's just built upon hook upon hook upon hook
Nina:And that's why everyone loves this song. Like, wasn't it Billboard's song of the decade?
J.:I think so.
Nina:Yeah, I mean, and sometimes that is the power in having more of a vague concept. I'm usually someone who wants people to niche down their concept and stick to it, because that's usually what's going to direct a songwriter, especially lyrically. And I think it really brings stories together cohesively. But when you have something that's just about like, let's have fun with music, Like you can just employ whatever the hell hooks you want and you can take it to like a stratosphere level. So again, it's just about like using your own taste and your own like decision making. What makes sense for the song? What do you want your audience to feel? That North Star moment, those things like that.
J.:Right.
Nina:Now I have OPP stuck in my head. That's my mentioning it. You down with OPP? Alright, so moving on to production and arrangement. These are becoming a little more common. Unfortunately, I feel like we're losing instrumental hooks, like as As a society, the more that we become more computer focused and we kind of get away from like really learning instruments and really digging in, but I mean a good production or arrangement hook can take your song to a completely new level.
J.:Yeah, and I think one thing that adds to that layer, that adds to the overall song and concept and what you're going for too, is if that lead instrumental kind of matches the, some semblance of the concept that you're going for. Like, I heard on TikTok there's this new trend of like, when you hear a song again and it just like, hits you in the nostalgia or something like that. I forget what it is exactly, but um, one of the songs that they put is He's Everything You Want by Event Horizon. And as I was listening back to it, I was hearing this like, synth y sound that was just dun, dun, mm, mm, mm, and then it starts to go a little awry towards the end of it. And it kind of maintains that throughout most of the song and as I'm listening to it that paired with like the lyrics I'm, just like oh, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. It captures this feeling of like somebody Yeah, somebody being in this, you know relationship and it's going okay, but something under the surface is still eating away at you. I think that's that's top tier arranging songwriting.
Nina:It honestly has one of the most interesting Guitar Techniques on it with like the start and stop when the song is first opening up. It has a pretty long intro. Well by today's standards, it has yeah, so it has at least eight bars I think I didn't count but I kept waiting for the song to start up and I was like Oh, wow, they really just let this guitar like do its thing and really pull us in and I thought that was so interesting and something that would be really difficult to get away with today
J.:I guess it also I think so too, but I think it also depends on like the genre. With like rock music I feel like it's more friendly towards like instrumental parts
Nina:One of my favorites when you talk about just the production elements And I think one of the most masterful, modern examples of production that we have is Bad Guy by Billie Eilish. That bass line keeps you in the whole time. The way that the sections change, it's just absolutely incredible. I was watching a video of Finneas breaking down the production of it the other day, and I was like, there's so much in this. There's just several layers of brilliance in this all packed one on top of another. That's another song that's hooky is all hell
J.:Yeah, and I think that's probably why it was like they're I mean they had a couple of hits before that But that was really like their Uh,
Nina:Launched them into the stratosphere, for sure.
J.:Yeah, yeah, I think it's the instrumental, too, because it's so, like, weird and out there. So, another thing to keep in mind is, like, your lead instrumental can be basically anything, right? So that's another thing to keep in mind too when you're When you're choosing you're not short for options. You can have a lot of different things. It can be bass like Nina mentioned it can be a guitar. It can be A chopped sample of somebody saying something it just it all depends really you should I think you should think about what you're trying to do overall with your song when you're picking like what it's going to be
Nina:Drums even can be hooks. Um, if you ever hear that song In the Air Phil collins You know exactly what drum break is coming. Um, and, and it's, and everybody knows that song. Like you can play it at a party and everyone will do like the air drum thing. And that's just because Phil Collins is an amazing, amazing drummer. There's also in terms of really hooky drums is, uh, Rolling in the Deep, adele, the bridge. When everything drops out except for the percussive elements. And that was, I think that altered my brain chemistry. When that, when that part of the song came in, like it was such a departure, but it made so much sense. It was so good. Um, I remember I was in the car with my sister. I had not heard the song yet. She's like, you haven't heard this song yet. And it came on pop radio and she like cranked it up. And she's like, this is the part of the song that hits so hard. And I was like, Oh my God. Um, and that's when I fell in love with Adele. Once upon a time, still, still in love. Yeah.
J.:And speaking of her, I think that's a good segue into our next one, which is sometimes you can switch your lead instrumental in different sections. Because in Skyfall the verses are almost completely led by the the piano part but then when we get into the big chorus part we hear drums but we also hear like this really distinct string part that kind of takes over and I like this technique only because it kind of breaks up what can become potentially like a monotonous lead instrumental all the way through. I'm not saying that's not possible. Like, Last Night by Morgan Wallen, that guitar is there the whole time, pretty much, and I didn't get tired of it. Maybe some other people did, but I didn't get tired of it, personally. But this is a good way to avoid that, and it gives you another hook. To throw in your song, so why not?
Nina:That works really well for songs that have like really dramatic dynamics if you want to create a sense of drama. Having something like a really simple piano line and then taking it into a string section I mean it was so cinematic and it was perfect for Bond and and and there's a reason why that song has an Oscar. You know, like it's it works. So so well So that's another thing to keep in mind. Um, the dynamics of a song can even be hooky. Because they keep the listener engaged and interested. All right. Did we get all of our hooks?
J.:I think so.
Nina:I think we, I think we got it. I do not have another bad hook pun to close out this segment with. I'm so sorry.
J.:We're safe, y'all.
Nina:I was really hoping that you had one.
J.:No, I don't.
Nina:All right. So that is the closeout of our conversation on hooks. I think it's really hard to talk about hooks because they could truly be anything. And I think in our master's degree program, we spent like an entire month just on different types of hooks and looking for them and writing them. Um, I know we spent two weeks in a row, at least in one class and then another two weeks in another class, because this was, they just felt like this was so central to writing something that sticks out in the mind of the listener. But hooks are fun, and when you find one, like, you know it. It's that moment of like, like, there's nothing better than finding a hook in the writing room, because that's just the, the moment that the song really starts to come together. And that's, I think, how you know you have a hook on your hands, is when all of a sudden, like, there's a shift in the energy. In the room and everyone's really excited and everybody's on the same page. And I think that's the power of, of using hooks in your writing.
J.:So like, what would you say to people that think doing some of these techniques is like super commercial or selling out as they would say?
Nina:Well, so I was recently at a SXSW talk with the Black Keys in an interview.
J.:Oh, cool.
Nina:And they talked about like their game changing song, how they had the album almost done and they listened back to it and they're like, you know, what it's missing is like this. And so they went into the studio with the intention to write a song that was catchy. And the drummer said, he's like, I thought that was illegal. I thought catchy just happened. I didn't think you were like allowed to or supposed to go in with the intent to write something that is catchy. And I think there's a lot of like, there's a lot of individualism in music. I think because it's, it's, such an individual thing. Everybody has their own taste and I think trying to appeal massively to some people is antithetical to the point of music because we feel it so deeply and so personally. But really when you think about it, it's just a way of making your sentiment in your song relatable and it's just about trying to get as many people in on this conversation as possible and so that's why I really don't like these conversations about, you know, being cagey or, oh, it has to be super artsy. It has to be this, it has to be that. It can be those things, but music is also meant to be fun and it's meant to bring people together. As much as it's meant to serve you, it's also meant to serve others. We had a professor talk about like, music is one of the most selfish things because as soon as you put it out in the world, people take it and they're like, this is mine now. Your lyrics are mine. This is mine. This melody is mine. This is my story.
J.:This is about me. My, my life soundtrack.
Nina:Yeah. And then like the artists will come out and be like, that's not what that song was about at all. And people will be super upset about it. And it's like, it's still yours. But it's also that person's and that person's and that doesn't take away from it also being yours. I, I don't know. It's, I, I think I, I got like way too deep psychologically.
J.:No, but I think that the, the thing is that that kind of mentality of thinking like, oh, it's too commercial or it's this, it does come from like a deeper issue. So it's like, you kind of have to think of it that way in response, right? Because really, what is it that they're, do they think that way because like, maybe they're afraid to invite people in? And, and, and if that's the case, you know, I'm happy for you. Like, I think that it's great that everybody, you know, if people are People want to make music, that's totally fine. Everybody should, to some capacity. But I'm just saying that if you want people to respond well to your pieces or maybe able to connect a little bit, it's, it's more than just trying to say something deep. It's like sometimes you also have to give them something melodically to remember or even just lyrically.
Nina:I think that's been a lot of the backlash to Taylor Swift's new album is because it is so lyric heavy and because a lot of it's really formless, a lot of it's all over the place. And I think that was very intentional on her part and there are some songs on this album on Tortured Poets Department. I have to say it. I finally learned how to say it instead of Dead Poet's Society. Yeah, so and you know, it's been hard for me to return to the project I think now I can now that people aren't talking about it as much and like putting their opinion on me. But, I mean, the songs are really long, they're really lyric heavy, and that's not always like a really pleasing listening experience, especially for 31 songs in a row, which was a lot. And so there are songs that I'm listening to over and over again, like Down Bad. And I really like that song. I think it's really catchy. Um, I Can Do it with a Broken Heart. It makes me laugh because I think we've all been there. And I was actually broken up with before finals week when I was in college. And I was like, I feel this. I am, I'm there with you, Taylor. But I think that was, I think that was a lot of it. I think that's why a lot of people didn't really like the album is because it was lacking in hooks quite a lot. And those are the things that keep drawing us back in. And so while I think the lyricism is, is great in this album, it's not always about the lyrics. There's, there's more to music than lyrics.
J.:But I think people also have to remember like songwriting is about both. Right, like you can't really separate either of them because if you do you're either a poet or a composer like there's a fine line between them. I had heard some somebody's defense for Taylor on this album because they I think they were responding to somebody saying that you know, there were too many lyrics or something They were saying somebody responded saying oh, but it's a poetry album and I'm like, no, it's not It's not a poetry album. It's, you know, all song It's not a poetry album. Yeah, unless you're doing like spoken word or something, which is a thing, but that's not, that's not what she was going for, really. And for me, actually, I think Taylor, I actually prefer her melodic writing to her lyricism, if I'm being honest. Like, I like when she's being catchy and fun and the, like, all, for me, 1989 is like a no skips album because all the melodies are tight.
Nina:Well, I think that's what makes, I mean, I've waxed poetic on Blank Space before. I think that's what makes Blank Space so brilliant is that it has such a strong concept and it has incredible melodies and it sticks to them. I mean, it's so powerful. And so I think a lot of this. I mean, it was what Taylor wanted it to be. And whether you like it or not is kind of, it doesn't really fucking matter. Cause she's a billionaire. She can do whatever the hell she wants and good for her. But I think what people were missing was, was some of that, like. The melody, there are a lot of moments where the, a really catchy melody was abandoned to fit in a good lyric. And that's not necessarily like the songwriting, um, style that you and I prescribe to. I used to, um, and I got criticized very heavily for it. And now it's all that I hear throughout the album are like personal criticisms that I faced as a young songwriter, like, you know, coming up and exploring my own style and learning about my own self.
J.:Yeah.
Nina:And so I think that's what makes it tricky. It is a very poetic album. It was what I expected it to be. I didn't expect it to be a double album, but there was nothing on the album that really shocked or surprised me in terms of her writing style or what she was setting up with the rollout. Because there were all these people online that were like, I just wanted one bop. And I was like, you weren't going to get one, honey. It was called The Tortured Poets department. All of the stuff was in sepia tone. Everything. She called it an autopsy. Like, the stages of grief are thematic throughout it. But I wanted a bop. Like, it ain't 1989, babe. But you got, you at least have I Can Do It With A Broken Heart, which I sing all the time.
J.:Mm hmm. So there's a, there's a fine line to maintain also. Because there is such a thing as having too many hooks. That's totally. That's totally fair. That's very much a thing.
Nina:If they don't go well together, then, then it's just nonsense, right? Like, uh, it has to, it has to fit thematically together. It has to fit the song. And so by contrast, we're talking about Uptown Funk. I mean, that is a song that like almost has too many hooks. It has exactly as many as they could fit in there without, like, just banging us over the head with it.
J.:Right. But again, it goes back to concept, right? Because it's just about music and having fun, they can get away with that.
Nina:I will say, the concepts are all very strong in Torture Poet's Department. I was, I was pretty happy with that. I was like, okay, yeah. I saw what she was doing. Now that people have stopped talking about it as much, and I don't feel like I'm constantly getting somebody else's opinion, I'm gonna try listening to it again and really seeing how I feel. I felt like I needed to take a break from it. It was a lot. 31 songs is a lot, Taylor. I say that with all the love in my heart.
J.:Yeah. I always have to re listen to her stuff twice also before it sets in for me because I didn't like Midnight's at first, but it kind of grew on me.
Nina:It did me too. I didn't like Evermore at first and it's one of my favorites now because it grew on me. But moving on to our final segment, one that we keep almost forgetting even though it's literally the name of the podcast. So moving on to our Playback Picks of the Week. J, what have you been listening to this week?
J.:So I've been waiting for it for the past two weeks. So my Playback Pick of the Week is 360 by Charlie XCX. And I also wanted to add it because I think this is another good one that uses a lot of the hooks that we talked about, right? To me, Charli is the queen of hooks. And it's interesting because I consider myself more of like a concept writer, right? I write in metaphors and shit like that. She doesn't. She's just like, I'm, for the most part, just going to write this really cool, like, somewhat of an idea, but her melodies are always like air. Tight. Um, yeah, 360. So that already, it's using a number. When you're in the mirror, do you like what you see? When you're in the mirror, just, you're just looking at me. Anaphora. I'm everywhere, I'm so Julia. So I would, that's probably a riff, right? Or a non lyric hook. One of the two. When you're in the party, bumping that beat. Onomatopoeia. Um, that's just the chorus. And she already has four different techniques. That's, that's impressive to me
Nina:this is why we need pop writers, honest to God, so that they can just like slam us in the face with something catchy and fun and get us out of our heads because that is valuable.
J.:She's so fucking good. Thank you for giving us a finally a Song of the Summer. Well, we have Espresso too, but these two, like these are the Songs of the Summer.
Nina:Absolutely, yes. So, mine is a little bit more, it's not, well, it's pop, but mine's a little more under the radar. This band showed up on my Instagram, probably with, like, a paid you know, spot or I saw a reel or something and I followed them immediately because I, the song was so catchy, the snippet of it that I heard, I immediately, I ran to Spotify and I thought it was a chorus because it was so damn catchy. And it's the opening verse. I was like, stop it. I was on the floor. It's Beaches' Blame Brett. It's one of the funniest songs I've ever heard. It is exactly every girl who's just been through an absolute heartbreak wanting to go through a phase of like, you know, fuck men. Um, it's great, but the opening verse is as catchy as a chorus. I was so, I was beside myself, I was so impressed. Also, an all girl band called The Beaches is hilarious to me. So, kudos to these girls, definitely go listen to Blame Bret. It's hilarious. I don't know if the guy's name is actually Brett, or they were just looking for something that kind of rhymed with blame my ex, blame Brett. It's, it's so funny, and it has a little call and response feel to it at the end of the chorus, so.
J.:But I think that touches on something interesting, right? Which is like, a, a, in your song, you shouldn't wait until your chorus to have something catchy. It should be, there should be a little bit something in, like, every section.
Nina:In today's attention economy, if you want somebody to listen to your song, the first 30 seconds have to be catchy as hell. And I'm actually, that's not even true. The first 10 seconds need to have something catchy, something that hooks the audience in. Something that gets people to keep listening. Because, honestly, I, I don't have time. I'm, I'm gonna move on to the next thing, and I am a songwriter. You know, and I do have a great appreciation for music, but if I'm bored in the first 30 seconds, there are other more catchy things that I can listen to.
J.:Yeah, I would even say less than 10 seconds, because I don't know why, just because you brought it up, but in Blank Space, that I don't know why. I still don't know why. I still remember listening to that for the first time and thinking, that's so interesting. What's, what is this? What's going on here?
Nina:Oh god, it's so good.
J.:I don't know what, I'm sure it's like a synth of some kind, but it sounds so unique to me. And it's very distinct to that song, right?
Nina:It is. And you know exactly what song it is as soon as the song starts up. And there's, there's so much power in that. Alright J, any final words on hooks?
J.:No. Just have fun with them. Play around and see what happens. Sometimes you might get like a really good idea out of it or sometimes you might feel like that's the hook that needs you. That's the thing that needs, that will take your song to the next level and get people singing along to it or make you satisfied with it. You never know. You should give hooks a try if you're not already.
Nina:They, they make, they make everything better, even sad songs, I would say.
J.:Oh for sure.
Nina:Yeah, even sad songs have really good hooks in them. So pay attention. My best advice is go looking for hooks. Listen for the hook in a song. Listen for the hook in sad songs and that will also really take your songwriting to the next level because when I started looking out for and noticing hooks everywhere, that's when my songwriting really took off for me personally.
J.:That's really good advice
Nina:Yeah, because once you really start listening like for hooks, then you're like, oh wow, they really are everywhere in all of my favorite songs.
J.:Yeah, and I would take it a step further and also say look at where people break the hook, because normally the rule is after you've repeated something three times, it needs, it needs to change.
Nina:Yeah, it needs a, it needs a little, a little shift, a little something.
J.:But,
Nina:This has been fun. I love, I love doing these really technical episodes and I would love to hear some feedback if you guys love our technical episodes too because we get to nerd out about something that we spent a lot of money and a lot of time learning.
J.:A lot of money. I just saw, listen, I'm still waiting on this administration to do something about this shit. This is crazy. I know. Gosh.
Nina:Anyway, that is it for Playback the Podcast, guys. We will see you next time.
J.:Go write a great song.
Nina:Go create some good in the world.
J.:Bye.
