So you want to release your first single as an independent artist... Well, our hosts Nina Blu and J. Xander have a step-by-step guide on what to expect when you're expecting your first release. They give their best advice based off of their own experiences and what fellow indie artists have suggested to them. Then, J turns the tables on Nina and interviews her about her new single, "magnetic (closer, closer)". It's a wonderful in-depth talk about what to focus on in songwriting and they answer the age old question, how much does the story really matter?
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So you want to release your first single as an independent artist... Well, our hosts Nina Blu and J. Xander have a step-by-step guide on what to expect when you're expecting your first release. They give their best advice based off of their own experiences and what fellow indie artists have suggested to them. Then, J turns the tables on Nina and interviews her about her new single, "magnetic (closer, closer)". It's a wonderful in-depth talk about what to focus on in songwriting and they answer the age old question, how much does the story really matter?
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Welcome to Playback, the podcast about what's hot and trending in music right now. I'm singer songwriter Nina Blu.
J. Xander:And I am singer songwriter producer J Xander.
Nina:J, how are you feeling with it, uh, getting darker after Daylight Savings?
J. Xander:Listen, I'm tired as hell. It's dark all the time. It's like 15 o'clock all day every day here in DC. How is it out there?
Nina:Listen, in Texas, it's getting dark around 5 is when it's starting to get dark, and my dogs are like, It's time for bed. Like, we're done for the day. I'm like, I wish I was. You're done for the day every day.
J. Xander:Right, exactly. They have nothing better to do.
Nina:No, oh my gosh. I'm so jealous, but it's, oh my god. I have like five more things to do tonight, and I'm just dreading it because it feels like midnight right now.
J. Xander:Literally, yeah.
Nina:I was making dinner before we were set to record, and I was like, gosh, it's so late. It was five.
J. Xander:Right. Like, how much daylight are we saving? Like, this is wild.
Nina:Zero. Zero. This is one thing that unites all Americans, is we hate that we do this.
J. Xander:Yes.
Nina:Alright, so, this episode, we decided to talk about releasing music as an independent artist. It has been a minute. Since we've been through releases, I just went through it last week. So it's a little more fresh for me, and it was relearning a whole lot of stuff.
J. Xander:Yes, there's a lot of steps to it, so.
Nina:And I made several mistakes that we'll talk about.
J. Xander:It happens, I mean, it's, you know, for independent artists out there, I think it's also important to realize that Other artists that are like signed have an entire team dedicated just to doing that. So don't feel discouraged if you're just like, oh, what the hell is all this stuff? Cause that was all of us at one point or another.
Nina:Oh yeah, and I used to like, have such a better idea and then I took a break for grad school and I kinda wish that I hadn't taken a break. Although I don't know what I would've released, I wasn't super like, I don't know. Um, I'm glad that I worked on the song as long as I did. But, oh man, relearning this stuff and going through with like a new perspective and a whole new to do list, it's, it's been a lot. Um, cause it's all me. It's all done by me. I don't have a manager, nadie, so. Yeah. flying solo.
J. Xander:Yeah, and I was the same way, I took like a little bit of a break, so it's just like, I'm dreading the process, so I respect you for having done it already, like recently.
Nina:Yep, and I got a lot of tips from our friend Cati Landry, I'll talk about those too, she couldn't join us tonight unfortunately. But, uh, go stream Mine's Eye, keep streaming it, cause it's a great song.
J. Xander:Yep, it's a great song to drive to.
Nina:It is a great song to drive to.
J. Xander:Yeah, when you need to just like relax and vibe for a little bit.
Nina:I have, like, a long commute tomorrow morning. That's such a good idea. I might listen to it, like, twenty times in a row. Just to deal with life. Alright, so, let's talk about the steps to releasing music as an independent artist, because this is something that I feel like a lot of people aspire to, or this is something that a lot of people don't really know or understand. Like, I have found myself educating friends and family. So much over the last several weeks about why certain things matter, why certain metrics matter. But step one is write a good song.
J. Xander:Right, oh, and you know a lot of people think that, oh, well, I'm a musician so my number one job is just to make great music. And it's kind of like, well, yeah, but that's step one. Like, that's obvious.
Nina:Yeah, that's the very basic, that is the least amount of things that you do is just write a good song.
J. Xander:Right.
Nina:Cause we all want the song to like, pop off and someone to magically, mystically find it, but that's probably not gonna happen for most people. You gotta put the elbow grease in. Right. And so, you gotta write a good song, and then however you record it, whatever process you go through, You have to have it mastered and delivered to you, final project, ready to go, before you even think about setting a date. Like, this is something that a mutual friend of ours, Patrick Ermlich, pressed upon me. He's like, no, you have to have everything in regard to the art done before you set a date.
J. Xander:Listen, I just talked to him, like, a couple days ago about this big project I'm working on. And he was basically just like, no, no, no, no, no, in order for you to start releasing these songs. The whole collection has to be done because otherwise you can't plan on like dates or anything like that because you never know what's going to happen. Life's going to get in the way and it's a little bit, I'm not going to say embarrassing, but it's not a great feeling to set a date and just like not be able to make it. So it is a good idea to have like everything in regards to a release, just like done, done in terms of like
Nina:the very least that you need is the music done and ready to go. And the artwork as well. You have to have the artwork done. That is the mistake that I made. I wound up having to push my release back two weeks, which I hadn't like made a formal announcement. I just talked to like friends and family and they're like, where is, where's the release? I was like, oh wait, no. The art got delayed, which was my fault. That was totally on me. The artist that I was working with, like they were great. But yeah, that was, that was my bad. And that's not, that's such a rookie move. It's definitely not something you want to do. But, yeah, so, when I was talking to Patrick, he was like, when are you gonna have, like, all of the songs ready for this project? And I was like, February? He's like, okay, then you can't release until August. Or September, at the earliest. Mhm. There's so much that goes into the timeline, and figuring out a rough timeline without fully setting dates, but just what month you want to have things done by, And then as you get closer maybe two months out, you can really figure out a specific date, I think is really good. But a budget and a rough timeline, that will do you wonders.
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:And another thing that people forget to include in their budget is marketing.
J. Xander:Right. And, and that's such a big thing. Cause otherwise, how are they, you know, how's anybody gonna find your stuff?
Nina:Yeah. Yeah, are you going to take out ads? Are you going to take out ads on Instagram or on Spotify, or like, what are you going to do? Um, this is a good moment probably to talk about Payola, Pay2Play, which has been a big thing in the industry lately. There are lots of things that say that they can boost your streams, people who say that they have viral playlists and stuff like that. Um, this has been going on for like a few years now because people understand how important Spotify numbers are, especially for independent artists, and I heard recently that the Spotify algorithm can identify those practices and will actually suppress your song further.
J. Xander:Yeah. I believe it. It's just like the same thing with Instagram and all those other places that promise like a boost in followers and whatnot. Like, the app itself can tell.
Nina:Yeah, and it's usually bots.
J. Xander:Exactly.
Nina:Yeah, so it's not like real people. You're not building a fan base. It's usually... Or, like, you could. Some of these playlists are... Somewhat legitimate they do have people who listen to them regularly, perhaps, but it's usually bot numbers.
J. Xander:Right, and the issue with that, I think, is that, particularly with music, bots aren't gonna follow your career.
Nina:No, bots aren't gonna buy tickets, or merch.
J. Xander:Exactly, it's like, this is very much, I think, an industry about making that connection with people, so just doing the whole pay to play thing, for this specific. Art form and most honestly, just it's kind of It's just a lose lose situation in my opinion
Nina:Yeah, it is and like I've gone through Submit hub and Groover. Those are things that you can submit your music to industry professionals and stuff And there are some scams on there, too. There's some legitimate people that I've looked up on LinkedIn Which is always a good idea because if somebody says that they're part of a label or they're a music supervisor. Do your due diligence. Pop over to LinkedIn, see if the profile matches. I mean, it's still a shot in the dark, but you know, like I haven't had a whole lot of success on it, but I wouldn't completely write off of those platforms either.
J. Xander:Right. It's just like anything else. It could have its positives and negatives.
Nina:Yep. And then you have to have the art finalized. We talked about that. J, do you have any tips for figuring out art to go with a release?
J. Xander:Yeah, I mean, you really want to look at the project itself and kind of cater maybe a color palette for that specific album or whatever body of work that you're trying to release. Because you kind of want this piece to be fully realized. Right? And it's like, you want to have a visual component of it because you're going to have to have cover art. You're going to have to have, if it's an album, like an album picture for the cover of that as well. So that also kind of helps pique people's interest. Sometimes people can just see like the cover of an album and be like, Oh, what's this? Let me check this out. I wouldn't underestimate the power of that.
Nina:No, not at all. And having a good canvas, I don't have one yet, it's been delayed. Um, but it's something on Spotify, it's like the gif that plays along with the song that moves. And if your photographer can do that, they know exactly what you're talking about. And hopefully, like, they can put it together for you, but that's also always a really good idea to include. And the simpler the better on those, like the best ones that I've seen have been just really simple, of like the artist walking in or out of the frame, or it's a reference to something, or like a quick animation, um, it doesn't have to be super complicated, because it's It's like a gif.
J. Xander:It's a loop. Yeah, it's like not a feature film. You're not, you don't have to be Spielberg for this particular thing.
Nina:Not at all. No, no. Then you have to make sure website and social media are up to date. You are the king of keeping your website up to date because you have yours that you use for your artistry and yours that you use for writing, correct?
J. Xander:One for teaching and then one as an artist. Yeah, basically. And I also have to do, I also just went through training for maintaining the website at my job, so. Websites all over the place.
Nina:You're just all over it. What are your top tips for that?
J. Xander:Keep it current. Uh, keep the space. It's simple and clean. You don't want to have too much information on the page itself. That just gets super overwhelming. If you've ever had to do a PowerPoint presentation for school, a lot of those, it's the same tips I would use. Be very visual based. Don't have a lot of information on the page that people don't readily need to know about. Kind of communicate that through the, the bigger headings and text that you have there. Always have social media links basically at the bottom so that people know where to find you. And you want to invite people to come over to your mailing list. Because that's the easiest way that you can market any upcoming projects that you might have. Because it goes directly to them.
Nina:An email list is as good as gold. You can just, you can send out email campaigns and all kinds of things. There's all sorts of great tools to use for email. Just sending out newsletters, keeping people up to date. And it's something that I really haven't worked on myself. But it's, it's one of those, it's on the list of things to do.
J. Xander:Yeah, I mean, it's a lot to cover, so.
Nina:Um, so my big tip, and this is helpful for social media, this is helpful for the website and for email campaigns and just talking to people, is have several blurbs about your story and your song, because I have had to write so much when making profiles online or reaching out to people or just talking about the song. When I was pitching this song to Spotify playlists, I was exhausted as I'm doing this, and it's like, you have to put through the instrumentation, who does this sound like, what does this sound like, who would be interested in this, and it's a lot to think about. Realistically, it should only take you about 15 minutes, but I got to that section where they were like, describe the song, and I was like, oh god.
J. Xander:Yes. Well, it's There's music.
Nina:There's music, and it's good, and you should listen. that's not gonna get you on a playlist. But having a really interesting blurb and having things that are well known that you can compare it to is probably what's best. I was listening to, um, an A& R rep today, and she was like, I get the worst emails, let me teach you how to rewrite an email in the best way possible. She was like, don't compare yourself to Ed Sheeran and Taylor Swift. Everyone's gonna say that they sound like Ed Sheeran and Taylor Swift. Pick a known unknown, right? And that's who you need to use. Something more specific. Someone that most people in the industry probably know who they are that has an identifiable sound. And say, I sound like this person mixed with this person. So, try and stay away from like, the biggest superstars of the day and really find who aligns with you.
J. Xander:But also, that's funny that you mention that, because it's like, those two artists in particular do all kinds of genres. So, if you say that you're like them, that could literally mean anything.
Nina:Anything! Like, I'm sorry, Ed Sheeran's first album and his most recent are miles apart.
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:I'm a fan of both. Miles apart. Like, oh, I remember I was talking to Bonnie about Ed Sheeran because I had done a review of one of his songs, and she was like, he's
J. Xander:That's our previous program director, for those of you that don't know.
Nina:Yes. And she was like, Ed Sheeran is so annoying in that he can do folk really well, and acoustic, and he writes pop really well too, and she's like, screw him for that. He's so talented.
J. Xander:It's cause he understands, like, no matter what genre you're doing, you have to have a hook. You have to have something that's, like, singable, I think.
Nina:Oh, for sure. We could do a whole episode on the evolution of Ed Sheeran.
J. Xander:Mm hmm.
Nina:Cause he gets a lot of hate online, and I don't really understand why.
J. Xander:I think just anything that becomes popular enough kinda gets to that point.
Nina:Yeah, but, some people just really hate his guts. Yeah, that's true. He's not bothering any. I mean, he writes good songs, and he seems like a nice person.
J. Xander:And he's fighting the good fight for music copyright. So that's huge.
Nina:Heck yeah he is. He and Taylor, I would follow them into battle about that for sure.
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:But yeah, so that's my big tip, is to have several blurbs, keep them on hand, and repurpose them. You can pop them into ChatGPT at any time and say rewrite it for XYZ. And that'll do it for you. You can, say, rewrite this to sound more formal, rewrite this in 300 words instead of 500, like, all kinds of things. But if you have your keywords established and your few blurbs that you want to use, it helps so much. And then, you have to actually put the music out into the world. J, you know a little bit more about distribution. What are your big tips?
J. Xander:Do I? Um, it, I think, keep in mind that there's a couple out there, a couple companies out there that will do that for you, so do a little bit of research as far as just like, how much do you have to pay to upload songs? Do they take a percentage? Do they cover specific rights? You can do this if you're like, a cover artist, because some companies do, actually, you pay like a small fee and they will cover it for you. And also look at like, what platforms they distribute to.
Nina:Yeah, I'm working with Symphonic right now. It was suggested to me by, by our friend Patrick. And I just think it's a really good interface. Um, I had so much less trouble working with that. I worked with CD Baby previously. And I don't want to say anything bad about it, although I'm sure we will get lots of comments. But it was just, like, an older interface, and I wasn't crazy about it. Patrick's like, oh, try this, and I'm so happy with Symphonic, but they don't do cover rights. They don't do publishing rights. Whereas, which was the distributor that you were talking about that did that?
J. Xander:So, SoundDrop. And that's big among so Soundrop is good for cover artists, and I know a lot of VGM, video game music people that use it all the time, because for them they have to have those rights, otherwise they can't post anywhere.
Nina:Yeah. Oh yeah. So, like, if I were to post a cover, I would probably go through Soundrop. You can use different distributors for different projects. It just, sometimes the project calls for something else, you know, and... And so it is good to shop around. It's good to do your research on that.
J. Xander:Yeah, that's a good point. So your distributor is not, it's not like you're PRO. It's not like BMI or ASCAP where you're like, locked into that basically for a couple years. You can use whatever distributor you want, really.
Nina:Yeah, per project, per song, whatever you want to do.
J. Xander:Mm hmm.
Nina:Which is, I mean, honestly, that's so liberating. Like, that's great. I know a lot of my friends use DistroKid, and they're pretty pleased with it as well. Um, I don't know, I just decided to strike out and be different.
J. Xander:Yeah, I'm also with I just started with Symphonic as well because of Patrick, but um... Yeah, I just steered away from, I still actually use Sound, I still have like my Sound Drop account as well, just in case. But yeah, when it comes to DistroKid, like that's, that's a big one out there. But just again, be sure that you read through their policies and everything just so that you know what kind of what you're getting into.
Nina:Yeah, that is definitely a place that you don't want to, like, skip out on the homework. That's where you want to do your due diligence for sure, is picking a distributor. And then, and then, after all of this, you can set a date. They say at least six weeks out should be good. I did six weeks, and I hated it. I highly suggest ten. Ten is ideal.
J. Xander:Really? Why do you say that?
Nina:Um, I underestimated the, truly the amount of emails that I needed to send. And I got so overwhelmed and overloaded. Especially because I had other things going on in life, right? And so, I felt very rushed. I have to update the website today. I have to do this, I have to do that. And the to do list just got super, super long and really overwhelming, so I have a release in February, but I'm not as panicked about that. That's my own personal advice. I felt like six weeks was too little to get everything together.
J. Xander:Well, that's good to know. But it's also good to know that six weeks is, is like, kind of, The, you know, the standard. Like, for example, I'm sure there's some artists out there that are kind of just getting started and just kind of want to experience what it's like to release something, so that's like your, your date. But Nina's right, if you're, you know, gearing up for a lot of, playlist potential and really getting it out there, maybe take your time with it.
Nina:And I don't know if it's still this way, but your Spotify artist account? Won't be open until your very first release date.
J. Xander:I think so. I'm not entirely sure.
Nina:So you can't even, like, upload a profile picture, you can't put in the artist bio none of it, until your very first release is out and available and exists on Spotify. So my advice would be actually to, like, upload a preview of a song. I had an old song, um, and I'm gonna leave it up. Uh, it's called Love Her Like That, and... It opened up the Spotify profile for me for the first time. It's got a couple thousand streams on it, which I'm proud of. Yeah, that's something if it's your very very first release you might consider just uploading like the first minute of the song or an acoustic version or like
J. Xander:a demo
Nina:A demo or the voice memo or something just so that you can have access to your Spotify profile because I do remember the first time I released a song, I was stressed as all get out because I couldn't get in, I couldn't control the profile, like I couldn't see it yet. Yeah. But make sure it's something you want people to listen to or you wouldn't mind people listening to.
J. Xander:Yeah. Something that would serve as like a good introduction for your like... Base sound, I think, would be good.
Nina:Yep, so that is a word of warning. Social media strategy is really difficult. We're all just trying to figure it out. Nobody has the answer, that's all I can tell you. You might meet with a digital marketer, that might be a good idea. Um, again, be aware of scams, but like, oh man. The posting. I, I resent it. And I try not to be resentful of social media. I try really hard, but there are some days that I'm just like, again? I feel like I'm doing and saying the same thing over and over again.
J. Xander:Yeah, it's really frustrating because sometimes you can spend hours on like one video, only to have it perform way less than like a stupid meme that you post. That took you like two minutes to make, you know.
Nina:Yeah, that happened to us at Playback this morning.
J. Xander:It happens a lot, yeah. Um, But also like look at what platform that you're making the specific content for. So like TikTok, you can get away with being like a little bit funnier anyway. That's kind of like what it's for.
Nina:Yeah, you can totally be more random.
J. Xander:Yeah, with like Instagram, that has to be, you know. It has to look beautiful, right? Or
Nina:it has to be curated.
J. Xander:Yeah, it has to have like a very specific like look to it. That's
Nina:where I would pay specific attention to the grid and color theory. Yeah. Because if people are coming to your page for the first time, you want it to look a certain way. Like think about all the best pages that you've seen. They're like super curated with color and things like that. And so, yeah, that's a little more difficult. TikTok, people don't really care about what the page, what your page looks like. The most you're gonna get is like a like on a video, most likely. Someone might follow you, but because the follow button is just right there, it's unlikely that they'll visit your profile if they're following you from a video. Or they might, you know, just to see what other videos you've posted. But yeah, TikTok is just a mess. Be a mess. And to your point about like spending hours on a video, I don't suggest that. Not at all. Unless it's a video or something. Honestly, if it takes you longer than 15 minutes to make, I don't think it's a good idea for TikTok. It might be a good idea for Instagram or for YouTube, but there are so many people that I've listened to that are like, I wrote a script, I did this, I did that, and it only got like, 50 views. And it's like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, if it takes you longer than 15 minutes, maybe don't. Maybe don't. Unless it's a cover or something that you want to do like really nicely, but that doesn't usually pop off on TikTok anymore either, like people are really very tired of that.
J. Xander:Yeah, TikTok is a weird platform for artists, I think. It's like you have to be, you kind of have to be like a Doja Cat where it's just like humor is like a good, is a big part of your brand, you know what I mean?
Nina:Yeah, you have to be able to use it. In a way that fits the TikTok brand, in a way that fits your brand. Right. And if I were to, like, put one word to TikTok, it would be chaos.
J. Xander:Like... Yup. Unhinged, if you will.
Nina:Unhinged chaos. Like, what even is that app? What are we all addicted to? And it's, it is difficult to pop off the things that you don't think will pop off do. I mean... And it's wild to navigate as an artist, like I did talk to someone today who specializes in TikTok and I'm like, what do you suggest that I do? And they're like, they had a whole list of don'ts. Don't do the car video thing. Don't just record plain covers. People are tired of it. There's a conversation going on on TikTok right now about artists auto tuning themselves and people are getting accused of it left, right, and center. And Charlie Puth actually posted a video about it today that I came across on my timeline. And I was like, whoa. But he was like, stop bullying people who are being brave enough to share their art. Everyone uses autotune. And the point that I'm gonna make with that is, they're making a video on TikTok, making it seem like that's just what they naturally sound like, and then using autotune to correct it. Where it's like, if you were just like, oh, I, I am performing, I use autotune, like that would be one thing, but people are like recording in their kitchens and making it look very authentic when it's not. And I think that's the brunt of the issue, is like, TikTok is not where you go to get very curated things. People want authenticity. They want the chaos. Yeah.
J. Xander:It, it's so weird, because just like, as, you know, it really depends on like what kind of artist you are. But. Almost every time that I look on there. I'm just like how the hell am I supposed to make content that resonates with these people that are making You know videos of making out with Shrek like how am I supposed to compete with that? How what can I do, you know?
Nina:I don't think you can compete.
J. Xander:You can't compete with Shrek. That's insane That's wild.
Nina:Oh my god. That's so funny. I wonder if Mike Myers like knows
J. Xander:Y'all are dirty for doing that, by the way. Shrek is married, get some standards.
Nina:That's right, Team Fiona. Oh my god. Yeah, so, my biggest takeaway on social media is if it stresses you out, figure out ways that, to post that aren't going to stress you out. Because you do have to post, you don't have to post a certain number of times a day. There are, um, certain standards for Instagram and TikTok that people say are more likely to help you, but honest to God, if you need three days, take three days. It's social media, you should be having fun with it. Try and figure out how to have fun with each platform, and that'll do better than, like, any of the weird promotional stuff. Because people can sense desperation, and they can sense when they're being sold something. And they don't really like that, especially when they're on their leisure time. They want to come across something. They want to discover it. So that's another thing to keep in mind, I think.
J. Xander:Yeah, I don't, this memory just popped into my head since we've been talking about him so much, but, um, I think for artists in particular, it's hard to follow those kind of trends anyway, because I remember when Patrick was telling us, it's important for us to kind of have, not necessarily the mission statement, but just like a set of, okay, this is what my brand represents. And can you imagine, Somebody who's like, I have no morals whatsoever. I will do anything. Like, nobody wants to touch something like that. You know what I mean? Because it kind of, it just feels too much, like it's, it's too pandery. Like, you're trying too hard to sell something.
Nina:Yeah, people don't, they don't resonate with that. Like, people can smell a scam most of the time. It should be a really good scammer.
J. Xander:They exist out there.
Nina:They do. You know what? That they do. Anyway, so those are our top steps to releasing music. Anyone who has any questions, if you're a first time artist, please feel free to reach out to us on Instagram. Send us a message, send us your music, because we would love to hear it.
J. Xander:Yeah, we'll give you a shout we'll give you a shout out too, so.
Nina:Heck yeah! We are here for the indie musicians. We love independent.
J. Xander:So now I want to move into asking Nina some more specific questions about magnetic and just like the road that it took to get to To it because I feel fortunate enough to, you know, have witnessed some of this journey But obviously she can speak to that more than anyone can so Nina. I have one question which is What was kind of the moment that made you want to pursue music professionally like what got you into music in the first place?
Nina:What got me into music in the first place? What it was my grandmother was a concert pianist and And I was very spoiled. I was singing from, I think I was singing before I could talk. And I would just sit on the piano bench with her, and we would sing everything. And I was planning on majoring in music in my undergrad, but she passed away about six months before I was set to go to college, and I wound up kind of abandoning that dream a little bit. And then, um... I was in a really terrible car accident. I was bedridden for several months. This was years and years later, but I continued to like, make music, engage with music, write music, and I had started songwriting several years previous. It was kind of a hobby thing for me, and it wound up becoming my like, means of survival. Like it helped save my mental health, and so I thought I was going to be a music therapist. And that's why I initially started taking music classes, because I wanted to go get my master's degree in that. And instead, I got an email about the master's degree where you and I met, and I thought, maybe I can do this. Like, maybe, you know, maybe this is the right path for me. And I thought to myself, okay, if I don't get into this program, then I'll go the music therapist route. But if I get into this program, I'll go the songwriter route. And I wound up getting in. And I remember calling my mom crying, and she was driving. Um, she was on like a long trip from San Antonio to Houston. And so I'm crying, and I go, It's good news, I promise! Because, um, every time I've called her crying, she's gotten really upset. So, I called her crying, and I just remember saying over and over again, like, my songs matter, someone thinks that my songs matter, and that was my big moment where I, I made the commitment, like, this is what I'm gonna do with my life.
J. Xander:Yeah, it's a big deal when you get that letter from
Nina:It was a great moment, I'm so happy.
J. Xander:Very cool, awesome. So, when it comes to, like, songwriting specifically, though, What's your process for getting started with that, in terms of just like lyrics or melodies or just like song ideas in general?
Nina:If you had asked me a year or two ago, I probably would have said like, I'm a lyricist, like that's what I'm really good at, I'm a topliner, like that's what I want to do. Now, I really kind of focus on like melody and then finding a vibe. So, I find a really good melody, either I have like one good lyric, and then I try and recreate the melody from that, and help the song evolve from that perspective, or sometimes, you know, like, one of our professors taught us, I just do like, do do do into the microphone, and I see, and I play it over and over again, and I just see whatever comes up, whatever comes to mind. I get a lot of inspiration from, like, just quick little quips. Like, quotes and things that I find have an interesting concept to them, and then I try and recreate the concept in song form with a story behind it, whereas I used to really try and be a storyteller, now I'm just kind of looking for the relatable human element and then putting a story to it.
J. Xander:So what do you say to songwriters that feel like you always have to have a story to every song?
Nina:You and I have had this conversation like off the podcast.
J. Xander:We do. We talk about this a lot.
Nina:To have a story. I think if you're trying to tell a story that's fantastic, that's wonderful, and that is important. But I think the most important thing is can someone emotionally relate? Because we make music to relate to people. I think music is one of the most empathetic forms of art. I think it's a superpower. I think it connects us all. Like, everybody has a favorite song. Everybody has something that resonates with them. And that's really what you're looking for more than telling a story. And so, searching for that human element and leaving room for people to insert their own story is also really important. Because that's going to create that emotional connection to what you create.
J. Xander:Right, right. So, and when it comes to magnetic, like, what made you see the full potential in that? What made you want to see that kind of idea all the way through and finish it?
Nina:Um, I, it's hard to say. There was something in me that really wanted to tell this story at first. Um, I was in a bit of like a situationship. And it was kind of a love triangle situation and I wound up walking away because I came to a moment where I realized that I needed to value my worth more and if someone can't decide then they don't see it, right? And so, it was a really, empowering thing to talk about that vulnerability of. I still love you, but I'm walking away from me, and that's how the story started, and then it kind of became about itself, like the song just became about itself, because it took me, from conception to like fully writing it, I think it took me like four years to get it like written and recorded and out into the world, because it just kept changing. The first iteration was actually what got me into Berklee. And then I rewrote it for a class, and that was the second iteration that you heard, where I first had the hook of closer, closer, closer. And, um, it was that hook that made me think, oh, I need to explore this, because this is fun. It's fun to sing along to. Um, my classmates really enjoyed it, and just having that feedback was really important too.
J. Xander:Yeah, I do distinctly remember hearing that because it just felt like you were like right on the microphone and I'm like, oh, this makes so much sense. And
Nina:I'm not sure. I think I had the flu.
J. Xander:I'm not sure if that's what you were going for intentionally, but I was like, oh, I love this. I love when like words and like production and everything just come together like that. So
Nina:Right? Me too. Yeah. I really was like on top of the mic as I was singing. I think I had my head down on my desk and the mic like on the desk.
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:And that's how I was recording it, because I just felt awful.
J. Xander:That's amazing. So, like, where did you start with this song, though? Like melody or lyrics, or like, what, what stage were you in with just, like, starting it?
Nina:Originally, I started with lyrics, and then all of the old lyrics have almost, like, completely gone. Um, the only thing that's really stayed in is, like, the concept and then the melody. The original lyrics I really liked, but my producer, uh, Eric, who I worked with on this. I worked with two producers. I worked with Mike and Eric at Studio 601 in Austin.
J. Xander:Shout out.
Nina:Eric turned to me, he goes, this verse isn't hitting. It's not hitting. You need to write a new verse. And that was some very loving honesty that I needed, and I focused on melody, and I focused on the story, and I focused on saying something interesting in that first line. And I knew because, like, my hook was so repetitive that I could be a little weirder in the verses. And that I probably should. Um, to kind of, like, balance it out. Because if you're repeating yourself constant, constant, constant, because the entire chorus is just two words, then you should be, maybe not a should, but I thought, like, I could be a little more wordy, a little more poetic in the verses, and get a little more artsy with it.
J. Xander:Yeah. One thing that I find really interesting that you've brought up is that, A, first of all, like, the song took you a number of years to finish, and also you weren't afraid to, like, rewrite basically the entire thing, right? And I think that a lot of songwriters stray away from that. They think, oh, this is my baby, this is my thoughts. So, like, what is your advice to people that think that way? It's usually people that are just getting started, right? But what do you have to say to them?
Nina:Yeah. Um, I remember like a mutual friend of ours. She also expressed, I don't want to like call her out, but she expressed, she's like,
J. Xander:Say her name!
Nina:We have all evolved past this, but I remember she said this. Um, and she was like, I have difficulty changing the idea in my head. Like when it comes out of my head, like that's what it is. That's how it exists. I think that's a very, um, new to songwriting kind of position. I think that once you get some feedback and some good critique, then you start to see how you can change and how you can rewrite. And going through the rewriting process just means that you have faith in yourself and you have faith in what the song could be. And sometimes it takes you four years to make a song work, sometimes it takes four minutes. I say sometimes a song just happens and sometimes it feels like pulling teeth. Like, there are songs that I've written... And they just worked, and, um, and it, that's a beautiful, wonderful experience when the gods of inspiration are all shining down on you. I've also been on the floor of my bedroom staring at the ceiling on the verge of tears, like, why won't this song work? And so, it's just about having faith in yourself, and, and faith in the music. And if you have to take a break from the song, like, I took a break from Magnetic. If you want to revisit it, then do. Like, at some point you might. And, um, the song just kept pulling me back.
J. Xander:But, um, tss. But, um, tss.
Nina:It really did. So, like, at some point the song kind of became about itself because it kept pulling me back and I kept getting closer and closer and closer to the finished project. And it, like, it took Eric and Mike and I, three people, like, a year to fully realize it.
J. Xander:Yeah. Cool. What was the actual, like, recording and production process like? With them.
Nina:So, I brought this song to them in like, almost exactly as I've written it for the class that we were in. Mm-Hmm. And they were like, no uh, take this out, take that out, take that out. This is the best part. And that is the best thing about working with a really good producer is they will be honest with you in a really very nice way. Like they were nice about it. And so we kind of reworked some things and we did, um, a demo version and I listened back to it and that, those were the verses that like weren't hitting when we revisited it. So I sat with this acoustic demo that we had for a couple months before I decided I wanted like a like a Style feel like a Taylor Swift style feel or I wanted to feel like Out of the Woods I wanted a 1989 feel to it because I felt like that could carry the repetitive hook Was like that production style. And so I took those references to Mike and Eric and We just worked on it and worked on it. We played with things It was some of the most fun that I think I've ever had working with anyone There's this random mandolin solo that carries into the bridge, and that was just Eric just like picking up the mandolin. He's like, this might add some texture. And I was like, heck yeah, let's do it. And so it was a lot of experimentation and it was a great, great learning opportunity.
J. Xander:Great. Very cool. So In regards to like the release, do you have any advice for other independent artists and songwriters when it comes to that?
Nina:Stay true to yourself and stay true to the song. And, um, keep your wits about you. We talked about the release kind of in depth earlier in the episode.
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:But that's really what ha like I feel very strongly about that. Be your most authentic self and the right people will find it. I'm really trying to find people who resonate with it, who enjoy it. And I'm trying to find fans, not people who will listen to it twice and then never listen to it again. Um, so, think about what... connects you to the song and use that to find other people who will connect with it as well.
J. Xander:Very cool. What else do you have coming up?
Nina:So I actually have like a full year of releases planned out, thanks Patrick, and so I can fully say a music video for Magnetic is going to be filmed in December and hopefully it'll be out early next year. And then I have an acoustic version that actually Mike and Eric and I just recorded yesterday that'll be out the first week of February. A new single coming in March, another one in May, so look for those announcements. And this week I'll be finishing up my first album that'll be fully recorded. Just a couple of, like, songs need to be mixed and mastered, um, and so I should have everything ready to go by February and it should be out... Sometime next fall.
J. Xander:Very cool.
Nina:I'm really excited. I'm so excited to finish and be done because I've been working on this album for like two years which is at least a year longer than I thought it was gonna take me.
J. Xander:Yeah, I mean an album's a lot of work so great job on that.
Nina:It's so much work. I fully underestimated it. I remember our friend Valerie, I was telling like, she was our professor at the time, I was telling her I want to put out an album next year and she was like Yeah, no. That's not gonna happen. She was very nice about it, but like, in summary, she was like, yeah, no, it's not gonna happen.
J. Xander:Yeah, I like people like that, like her and Patrick, that will just be super honest with you as far as like, you're gonna do all that with what timing, you know?
Nina:Yeah, in the nicest possible way, they just, they fully, they know cause they get it, cause they've been there, cause they've seen it, or they've experienced it, and so that's the best thing. I do want to take a minute to talk about critique, because I have gotten a few back. So I've sent out just a ton of emails asking people for feedback, asking how people feel about the song, and, I opened my inbox the day before yesterday, and I had two emails, two replies, and the first one said don't like the voice, love the production. And the second one said, hate the production, love your voice. And they were right next to each other in my inbox. They said it like a lot more polite than that, but that was it. And so, that reminded me of our conversation that we've had about like, critique is just someone's opinion. That comes from a place of experience and education, hopefully. But that doesn't mean that they get it. Right, that doesn't mean that they're always correct. And having those two next to each other just freed something in me. I was like, oh my god, it's the subjectivity of art. You either connect with it or you don't. And it was such a great moment to just laugh about it. And, and it kind of helped me take back my power because I had a certain level of nervousness of like, oh my god, are people gonna like it? And I was like, the right people will like it, the right people won't. So it's, again, like, people are busy, they're listening based on their own bias and experience, etc. Whether they connect with it or like it or not, like, that's... I don't want to say it's not important, but don't put too much into it. Don't let it prevent you or scare you from putting your art into the world, because the right people will connect with it, I promise.
J. Xander:Right. I think they should also probably think about, like, who that's coming from, you know?
Nina:Yeah.
J. Xander:Because if it's, like, somebody that's totally outside of your genre and probably won't get it anyway, don't worry too much about it, I think.
Nina:No, and, Don't write those people off in terms of having a business connection. Like, if you know someone who does film scoring, they're probably not gonna be, they may or may not be super into my song. And that's fine, but you never know what opportunity is gonna come out of that. Like, networking is important, so, but again, like, take it with a grain of salt.
J. Xander:Right, exactly. And like, what do you do outside of music that kinda either... Keeps you going or inspires you to put more into the music itself. What hobbies or interests do you have that kind of stray away from that sometimes?
Nina:I love cooking. I really love cooking. I haven't been experimenting with cooking as much lately, but when we were in grad school and like really stressed out, it used to be my Friday night thing that I would find a recipe that I hadn't made before and I would make it. For whoever wanted to come over. And, because I really, I was too stressed to, like, go out all the time, or go out to dinner, and I was also trying to save money and stuff. But yeah, finding a recipe and just, like, trying it for the first time and getting to be creative, with my hands, it does help me just get out of my head. And kind of relax, because I'm always in my head when I'm writing or listening to music, most of the time, unless it's something really familiar, um, listening wise. But yeah, turning on, like, an old album that I love, and digging into a new recipe, like, that is, that is one of my favorite hobbies.
J. Xander:Who would you like to collaborate with in the future? Like a dream collaborator?
Nina:So we touched on this a little bit last episode, um, One of, like, my ultimate dream producers to work with is Catherine Marks. I have followed her for a few years. She's worked with The Killers and Boy Genius and I just love her style and her approach to music and I would give literally anything to work with her. Um, in terms of someone I'd really love to write with, like an artist that I'd love to write for, I'm a Texas girl, and I have fun writing country, even though that's not really my brand, but I would love to work with Maren Morris. And just like see what we could come up with, and right now, I am obsessed with Troye Sivan. And I would give anything to write a song, feature, do something together, like both of us as artists, I feel like that would work really well.
J. Xander:Oh my god, I'm a huge Troye fan. I'll never forget, I got to see him in... This, uh, venue called The Anthem out here in DC and Kim Petras was opening for him when like nobody knew who she was and I was like, oh, this is so amazing. One of the best concerts we've ever seen.
Nina:What a great show. Oh my god.
J. Xander:Yeah, it was great.
Nina:His new album is just incredible. He's killing it.
J. Xander:Yeah, he's been around for a while too. Good for him. That's, it's, that's hard to do in the music industry.
Nina:Yeah, it's, and his, Videos, his choreographer is Like the choreography is fascinating to me Like I keep re watching it and I'm like there's something really simple But so interesting about all of this like it's it's brilliant. I need to look up who his choreographer is because I'm obsessed
J. Xander:Are we gonna get any dance moves in your upcoming music videos like that?
Nina:Uh, I haven't danced in a really long time, but it is something that I want to start doing again. So that's a hobby that I haven't had for a really long time, but I want to get back into. Um, so the magnetic video, no, probably not. Actually, definitely not. Um, but I will not say no. Definitively.
J. Xander:Gotcha, gotcha. And besides, like, working with people like that, do you have any other goals or aspirations as a musician?
Nina:I want to write with as many people as possible. Like, I just want to see what I can create in the world. I have spent the last two years writing this single project, and it's gonna be done this week. And I am so relieved. There's something so freeing about that. I thought I was gonna be really emotional and really lost, and I saw a quote today that asks, are you really lost, or do you just have the opportunity to explore? And I'm so excited to have the opportunity to explore. I'm going to have all this music ready to go and have it under my belt. And now I get to just write. Like, I don't have to write to the project parameters. I don't have to, like, nothing. I'm so free, and I want to write with as many people as possible. Um, collaboration. Is one of my favorite things. I've met so many incredible people through collaboration and it's, it's, it's my favorite part of it. My favorite part of being a musician is making the music and writing the song and telling the story. And I want to do that as much as possible.
J. Xander:Nice, nice. That's awesome. Alright, so for our last and most important question, what is a song that changed your life?
Nina:I didn't realize how difficult this question was when we gave it to Faith, um, until I was faced with having to answer it, and, um, I thought for like a really long time about it because there are so many songs, as a musician, that have inspired or changed my life or have affected me in some way, shape, or form, but I think the song I'm going to say is Breathe, 2AM, by Anna Nalick. I think I first heard that song, I might have been like 15 years old, and I must have listened to it for like a month straight. Uh, it tells a beautiful story, it's got a great hook in it, and there's something so human about it, like, I don't know, I remember feeling so inspired, and it was one of those moments of like, aspirational, of I wanna do this, like I wanna, I wanna write something like this someday.
J. Xander:Yeah, that's, that's a big like, soundtrack song.
Nina:It is a big soundtrack song, but it, like, it starts, the first verse is about an abortion, and the second verse is about like, a veteran with PTSD. It's a very complex song, and it's so well done, the way that the pre... Escalates, and it's about the human experience, you know? You can't jump the tracks we're like cars on a cable, and life's like an hourglass glued to the table. Like, it's just, I think that song is brilliant.
J. Xander:Yeah, definitely, definitely. Um, well, great. So, any final thoughts, closing statements, that you'd like to leave with us?
Nina:Go stream Magnetic, please. Reach out, comment, send me a DM on Instagram. We're nice people. Please reach out and talk to us. We'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear your feedback. I'm so grateful to everyone who's been part of the project. I'm super grateful to Mike and Eric. I'm so grateful to you for, you gave critique like a couple of times on the mix and stuff, and I super appreciate that. anD just everyone who's been so supportive, both Cati Landry, Skylar Star, like, they've been championing this song, friends and family for sure. Just, I'm so full of love.
J. Xander:The girlies. Yeah.
Nina:The girlies, sticking together.
J. Xander:Nice, and that is, I don't know if we were going to do that segment today, but that is my Playback Pick of the Week. So I was, like I was telling Nina before this, I was genuinely listening to it, uh, like four or five times on my way to work the other day. It's so catchy, it's so well done, um, so yeah, congratulations with all of that.
Nina:Thank you, thank you. I think that's gonna be my Playback Pick of the Week too. I have actually, like, been listening to it, um, and it's been fun to try and plan a music video and listen to it at the same time while also knowing that I'm getting Spotify streams instead of just playing it on my computer.
J. Xander:Get that coin.
Nina:Get that, like, micro payment.
J. Xander:Get that bag, yeah.
Nina:Get that. I won't fund the video, but it makes me feel a little bit better.
J. Xander:That 00001%.
Nina:Yes, but go stream. Thank you everyone who's been part of the project and I'm looking forward to sharing even more.
J. Xander:Well go out there and write a good song, y'all.
Nina:Yep, go create some good in the world. We love you guys and we'll talk to you next week. Next week is our Christmas episode. J, do you wanna, since we've been doing our top 10 countdowns, do you wanna tell the audience what our Christmas twist is gonna be?
J. Xander:Yeah, so we know that there's a lot of people out there who hate Christmas music, so we're gonna do a top five worst Christmas songs and a top five best for each of us.
Nina:I'm so excited about this. I am scarred for life as a former choir kid having to perform Christmas concerts and the Messiah. There are some songs that I'm like traumatized by and will be for the rest of my life so I'm really looking forward to the next episode. We'll end it on a positive note. We promise we won't be Grinchy the whole time
J. Xander:Yeah, but if you're a Grinch come for the first half of the show.
Nina:Heck yeah Grinches and Cindy Lou Who's are all invited.
J. Xander:Mm hmm All right.
Nina:All right guys, see you next week. Bye.