It's 1989 (Taylor's Version) Playback's Version. Or is it Playback the Podcast (Taylor's Version)? Who knows. But this week singer-songwriters and producers Nina Blu and J. Xander dive into Taylor Swift's re-recording of her iconic pop album, 1989. Nina and J recap the reason why Taylor is re-recording her albums and give their top ten favorite tracks.
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It's 1989 (Taylor's Version) Playback's Version. Or is it Playback the Podcast (Taylor's Version)? Who knows. But this week singer-songwriters and producers Nina Blu and J. Xander dive into Taylor Swift's re-recording of her iconic pop album, 1989. Nina and J recap the reason why Taylor is re-recording her albums and give their top ten favorite tracks.
Listen to the songs we talk about here
Follow Us on Instagram
Watch the Video Podcast on YouTube
AI-Generated Transcript
More Information
Welcome to Playback the podcast about what's hot and trending in music right now. I am singer songwriter Nina Blu.
J. Xander:And I am J. Xander, singer songwriter, producer. And Nina, I hear we have some big news. I saw some pictures, maybe a new single that might be coming out.
Nina:A new single is coming out on November 24th. It's called Magnetic. It is a song that Is deeply personal and I'm really proud of. It took a really long time from its conception. You actually heard one of its like earliest versions. I think it was like rewrite number three of eleven. I don't even know at this point.
J. Xander:Damn.
Nina:Um, I know.
J. Xander:That's good though.
Nina:Yeah, the song kept pulling me back and um, that's a joke for those of you who haven't listened to it yet. There is a preview up on my Instagram and you can pre save. Please go pre save. Please check it out. Really appreciate all the love and support I've gotten so far and yeah, I'm just excited for everybody to hear it.
J. Xander:Nice, that's amazing.
Nina:I'm sure we'll talk more about it when it comes out and we'll probably make that part of a larger episode about independent artistry and launching a single and maybe we'll bring back Cati Landry to talk about her launch of Mine's Eye and that would be good, but for now... J, I think this is the episode we've been most excited about since we first took this new turn in our podcast.
J. Xander:Oh yeah. This is my favorite Taylor Swift album ever.
Nina:It's either this or folklore for me and they trade off by the day. I can't pick. It's like picking my favorite child between the two. But yes, this is our 1989 Taylor's version episode. J, what are your like first memories of 1989?
J. Xander:I just remember thinking that this was like the first album where pop actually for me sounded good for Taylor and it sounded more natural for her because I remember when I Knew You Were Trouble first came out and it sounded for me it sounded very much like somebody trying to do something that they're just like not used to. It just seemed like kind of forced. It seemed almost too poppy and I think that this was a much better like palatable sound for her.
Nina:Yeah, it's interesting that you bring up that song. That was the first time, I believe, that she and Max Martin worked together, if I'm correct. Um, he has very, I think that might be his only credit on, on the Red album. But 1989, she worked pretty much exclusively with Max Martin and Jack Antonoff on the production. The original version came out in 2014. So it's been nine years since she recorded these songs. And there has been a lot of talk online about the differences between the two. Some of it good, some of it bad. I think the vocal production has been really interesting to listen to.
J. Xander:Well, just her performance, I think, has been very interesting. And it's, you know, it's proof that you can get better as a singer. A lot of people, I feel like, once you're at a certain level, you just get stuck. But that's not, that's actually usually not the case. You usually get better as long as you're, you know, honing your craft and taking lessons and whatnot.
Nina:Oh yeah and like there's just such a difference between a song that you've sung for almost 10 years as opposed to one that you've maybe only been singing for 10 minutes and you're like rushing into a vocal booth to get it down. You get the scratch down maybe you rehearse a couple days and then you come back and record I don't know how much rehearsal time she had with each song on the original but whatever it is, it wasn't nine years of performing them live. So it's been interesting to hear the difference in confidence because, you know, like Cati and I have talked about this before, it's very different singing a song that you know and love as opposed to something that's just coming out of your head for the first time. And it's been interesting to hear that with Taylor.
J. Xander:Yeah, for sure.
Nina:So an article that you sent me today from Billboard is there's been a lot of talk about like record labels and PROs trying to make sure that Taylor doesn't re record again or that other artists don't try to do it. Do you want to talk more about that?
J. Xander:Yeah, so In order to kind of understand this situation, you need to understand how song copyright works, and most people just don't, unfortunately. So just so everyone knows, there's two parts to copywriting a song, really. It is just like the written part, the song itself, and then the recording itself, and in this particular situation, Taylor still has ownership of the songs themselves, the intellectual property. She just lost the masters, and that's a very common thing with these... you know, large labels. They usually want to have complete ownership of the master recordings, the actual audio that you're hearing on Spotify and all the channels, because that usually makes more money. And in this particular case, they're saying that in order to avoid this kind of thing from happening again, they want to put a clause in those kind of contracts where artists cannot record these songs anywhere from like 10 to 30 years. After they've left the label, which I just think is like... Hitler levels of evil. Like, that's just insane to me.
Nina:Nice.
J. Xander:It's crazy.
Nina:No, it's, it's awful. It's evil. Especially the more that you learn about specifically, like, why Taylor Swift is doing this and the drama behind it. But that's a really good, good summary of it. The two sets of rights. And I think Taylor has done a lot for educating songwriters about these issues with what's happened, so for those of you who don't know, this was actually not a major label. Taylor put this label on the map. It was Scott Borchetta's Big Machine group, and, actually, this is such an odd memory, but I'm just now, like, remembering, this guy was trying to hit on me, and he's a little weird, but I had, it was a situation I had to put up with it, um, and I told him I was a songwriter, and he was like, oh, well, I, I know Scott Borchetta at Big Machine Label Group, and it was like, You mean the guy who just fucked over Taylor Swift? That's not a flex, my man.
J. Xander:He should have been like, I know Osama Bin Laden too, how about that? What a weird flex indeed. That's wild.
Nina:Oh, so many jokes that are so inappropriate. Oh my god. Um, but yeah, it was, it was just super. So weird. Like, dude, no. Anyway, um, so what happened with Taylor is she signed on with Big Machine label group and that was her first six albums from debut all the way through Reputation. The drama came to a head in June 2019 when it was announced that Scooter Braun's media company, Ithaca Holdings, had acquired Big Machine Label Group for 300 million, and through the deal, Braun became the new owner of Swift's first six albums. She condemned the business deal. She said it was the worst case scenario, claiming she'd faced incessant manipulative bullying from Braun over the years. A few months later, she announced that she was going to re record her first six albums because she had the intellectual property rights to do so, but it was about owning the masters. She claims that for years, she pleaded for a chance to own her own work from Big Machine Records. She also claimed, like, it was in the dead of night that this sale happened to Scooter Braun. Like, she wasn't given a heads up that it was going to happen at all. She also begged Scooter multiple times to buy the rights. And she says they wouldn't even give her a number. They didn't even do her the courtesy of, like, replying with, okay, well, if you give us however many millions of dollars, we'll give you the rights. Not at all. Actually, there is a girl on TikTok who is impersonating her publicist and Like, the publicist was popping champagne. She's like, do you have any idea how much we would have paid for those masters and how much money we're making on these rerecordings now? And it was really kind of funny, but kind of like, the ultimate F. U. from Scooter was he then sold the rights to her masters to a private equity firm again in the dead of night. Without even having given her a number or the respect to try and bid for her masters. And so that was when the whole re recording business happened. And, um, and it's awful. Like the more you dig into it, it's just, it's terrible. And the fact that anyone in the industry is working to make sure that an artist can't do this again. There are already lots of artists who don't have the power to do so, and that's why we're rooting for Taylor is because she had the power and she effing did it. And good for her.
J. Xander:Yeah, it's just so evil to me. It's like, oh, you can't actually make another version of the song that you wrote for X number of years instead of just allowing the artist to maybe be able to bid on the songs themselves or have like part of the master, you know?
Nina:Even part, yeah, even being just the one stop on the master. I mean, honestly. And how do you police that? Like, Can you not do a re recording of like an acoustic album? There are a lot of 80s artists who are doing acoustic albums these days, like Cindy Lauper had a really good one. Like where, where do you draw the line with that? Like re releases are usually a And, Taylor Swift has pulled out the stops for these, as she does, because she's Taylor. So it's been, it's been incredible to watch as someone in the industry and as a fan of Taylor's.
J. Xander:Yeah, and I would just say to any songwriters out there, just artists period, learn a little bit more about this stuff, because it's like, it's unfortunately just like not taught, even in like the university level. When I was getting my bachelor's as a music tech major, I did not have a single music business class until like my last semester that vaguely covered this stuff.
Nina:Yeah, and this is, it's so important to just be able to understand the terms of a contract. Get a lawyer, get a lawyer, get a lawyer.
J. Xander:Yep.
Nina:But even they can only go so far as to explain things to you. I mean, it's the same way as if you don't plan on being a producer, you should learn production lingo so that you can communicate with the producer. Even though you don't plan on being an entertainment lawyer, if you're in entertainment, you should know enough about the issue that you can have an intelligent conversation with an entertainment lawyer, and you should have an entertainment lawyer, please.
J. Xander:Yeah. Shout out to them. They do a lot of work.
Nina:They do great, great work. Getting into it, J. Are you ready to do our top 10 countdown?
J. Xander:Let's do it.
Nina:Perfect. Okay, so we both agree there's been a lot of chatter online about the production differences. There are some people who are not very happy with them, and it's just really hard to try and recreate Max Martin's magic. One of the main producers on this rerecord is Christopher Rowe, and he's worked with her on previous rerecords. He's also worked on albums with Dixie Chicks, and so I think he did a great job. He's just a different kind of producer, and that's why you're not gonna get the same sound, especially with someone who has such a specific sonic profile as Max Martin. But you and I really agreed, for the sake of the podcast, to really pay more attention to the songwriting.
J. Xander:Yeah, we're gonna look more so at the songs themselves and how they hold up.
Nina:Yeah. Alright, I do just want, real quick, an honorable mention to one of the Vault tracks,"Now That We Don't Talk" because the TikTok trend and the tea that has come out of that, the girlies are roasting their exes and I am here for it. It's funny every time. It's shocking. I, I get such a, a, a good story in such a specific amount of time, it's amazing. I just, good on Taylor. We didn't know TikTok was gonna be a thing when she wrote that song, but it's, it's, it's dominating right now.
J. Xander:I swear to you, TikTok is the most unhinged platform ever, like just, I feel like people on there will find any excuse to, to say some stuff like that, but this song. Just is the perfect opportunity for that. Perfect opportunity.
Nina:Provides that, yes. Um, so that also just goes to show you never know what's going to pop off on TikTok, as long as you're having fun with it. Okay, J, let's start with you. What is your number 10, your 10th favorite song on the 1989 album?
J. Xander:Yeah, my number 10 is going to be All You Had to Do Was Stay and mostly because I think the top line here flows really well, well in comparison to some of the other tracks later on but also it goes back to one of the lessons that we talk about here a lot which is that anything can be a hook so that little stay like that one word for me is so memorable and I swear it
Nina:so catchy
J. Xander:lives rent free in my head it is a full time tenant.
Nina:It's, it's so catchy. This is one that, like, I just bumped off the list. Like, just barely didn't make it. If I really had an 11th spot, this would be, that's where it would go, but I made kind of a more personal choice that bumped it. But you're right, that high pitched stay, the production of it, the whole thing is just So catchy. I thought though it was really odd because there is that song Stay, Stay, Stay on her previous album, so it felt like recycling the idea a little too quickly, even though they are kind of from different viewpoints, it's still, it's such a It was just odd to me, and that was another reason why I had to really learn to like the song, just being a Taylor fan, because, let me just say, Stay, Stay, Stay on Red, miss me with that. Like, it's not one of my favorite Taylor songs, but this has become one of mine, so.
J. Xander:It's catchy.
Nina:It is catchy. It's catchy as hell. What's your number 10? Alright. My number 10 is Welcome to New York.
J. Xander:Ah, it's my number 8.
Nina:It is?
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:Okay, alright. I will say this is not a great single. but it is a great intro song. It really does establish where the album's gonna go. And it does kind of help you sink into this new feel for Taylor. This new pop feel. It is also a fantastic sync song. I have heard this song in so many movies. It really does. As the camera spans the skyline of New York City and she's probably made a ton of money off of this song simply because of the feel and of the lyric, Welcome to New York. I've heard it open up so many movies and the last great song we had about New York City was Billy Joel. We were overdue. This is like the millennial New York State of Mind is Welcome to New York. It just, it does it. Encapsulates the album's attitude so well and does introduce you to what was then this new version of Taylor.
J. Xander:Yeah, for sure.
Nina:The new era.
J. Xander:And to any songwriters out there, if you haven't heard about like Sync or the industry in general, maybe read up a little bit about it just because there's a lot of money to be made there, believe it or not.
Nina:You will make so much money off of a sync placement than off of streaming. Like it's, it's astronomical, the difference. Like it's really pretty big. Even off of just like little sync placements. It's also a great opportunity for exposure because you never know who's gonna be like watching a TV show and just hear your song in the background and go Oh wow, I really like that. And then look you up. I mean, it's not going to be every single person watching the TV show, but you might get a couple of new fans and that's a big deal. So it's good exposure. All right, J, what is your number nine?
J. Xander:My number nine is Wonderland, just because as I was listening to all the songs and making my list, I realized that I'm really heavy on the DNA titles, which is just basically a fancy way of saying that the title gives you a very clear visual picture of the concept and what it's all going to be about versus something like You Are In Love, where the title could be a little bit vague and all the other lyrics before it have to do the heavy lifting of explaining the title, but I really love this song because of The pre chorus especially. I think that it's got an interesting rhythm to it. I like how the lyrics about not rushing into things ironically do rush into things and take you to a new section. I only have it at number nine though because I just wish the chorus would have went somewhere else maybe a little bit higher. I don't know but I think that this is a fantastic pre chorus, which I think pre choruses are really hard to write, so good for her.
Nina:Okay, so this is my number seven.
J. Xander:Cool.
Nina:I really, really like this song. Alice in Wonderland references just get me every time. They're difficult to do right. But as soon as you do, like, the song just takes off, and you're right, like, it's, it's so well done. The way that the song evolves is even just masterful and prosodic, especially when you're referencing Alice in Wonderland, because the verses are really kind of peaceful, and they're almost slow, and the section contour is so wild that that pre chorus you were talking about comes in and it is like Alice's journey where she shows up in Wonderland and everything's really nice and pretty and then all of a sudden she's almost killed several times, like it's insane. And so it just, it fits so well. It fits so incredibly well. I will say, songwriters, if you're listening to Wonderland and you want to write something similar, if you're on an arpeggiated melody or something that sounds very arpeggiated, you have to be really careful with your lyric placement. Taylor did this masterfully in this track and when I was writing a song where that played a large part, my professor and I had to go through line by line and make sure that it was really tight, that there weren't any missettings, and that the most important lyric was on top of the melody and on the downbeat. So those are just some things to keep in mind if you're thinking, I want to write a song about Wonderland. That is, that is my one big tip that I pull away from that.
J. Xander:You don't want to have your important note or downbeat be on like a weird word somewhere, so that's important.
Nina:Or just a boring word. A weird word is even good, but like a boring word like the, or with, or a. We had a professor who talked all the time about how like, A or I wants to be, like, the first thing that you say, but is it the most important thing? Like, do you want to give that power away to a not so important word?
J. Xander:Right.
Nina:Alright J, what was your number 8?
J. Xander:So, my number 8 was Welcome to New York.
Nina:Ah, that's right.
J. Xander:So, what's yours?
Nina:So, my number 8 is Bad Blood featuring Kendrick Lamar.
J. Xander:Ah, this was not on my list.
Nina:Okay, so, fun fact, this is the only feature on the whole re recording, and he did come in and re record it with her.
J. Xander:Yeah. So... Respect to him.
Nina:Good on him. Yeah. I love Kendrick Lamar, so I love these verses. I think this, the beat is catchy on the song, and I think the chorus is not too bad. I know everyone makes fun of it, but I think it's kind of cheerleader y and kind of funny, and she's done that before with things like Shake It Off. And it's not meant to be, like, a really serious song. It is kind of lamenting, but not too much. But lots of people say the original Bad Blood is one of Taylor's worst songs, and...
J. Xander:I'm one of those people. I'm sorry. Respectfully.
Nina:Look, every time the original, Bad Blood comes on, I immediately switch it to Kendrick's version, because I do want to hear some of the hooks and stuff from the chorus. And, Kendrick just came in and killed it. She speaks very highly of him and their collaboration, and I was so impressed with both of them when the song was released, because these are not two artists that anyone would have put together, especially in 2014, and yet, they really made it work. Like, he Delivered. Also the music video was iconic. How many famous women were in that video?
J. Xander:I know. It was like the Expendables for the girlies.
Nina:Yeah, but with Victoria's Secret models and Zendaya.
J. Xander:Now that I'm thinking about it, it kind of reminds me of all like the girlies in the army memes now. You know what I'm talking about? That's exactly what it would be like.
Nina:Those are some of my favorite memes. Oh my god. Why has no one made that yet? It's just like You got, you have to now you have to.
J. Xander:Yeah. It's the clip from the, the opening of the video and the caption is me and the girlies pulling up to Iran or whatever.
Nina:breaking into the CIA
J. Xander:into Iraq.
Nina:Sorry. Um, no, that video was really iconic. Selena Gomez was in it. She played the bad guy. Um, that was really fun. But I have to say. While this would not be like, the number one question that I might ask if I got the opportunity, but if I was drunk with Taylor Swift, I would have to ask, what is the real story behind the song? Cause there's no way it's about Katy Perry stealing a few backup dancers, like something else had to have happened.
J. Xander:I never bought that story either, and even, Katy Perry herself recently was like putting out some tweets and stuff about how glad she is about how well Taylor's doing. Just in general and with like her new relationship. So it doesn't seem like there's any animosity there.
Nina:I don't think, I mean, they might have had a falling out and forgiving each other because that happens. It's human nature and people are allowed to. Um, but like I don't think it was about backup dancers if it was the two of them and I, I actually don't believe it was about the two of them either. I think maybe they faked it. I don't know.
J. Xander:I don't know. I did read somewhere, I don't remember where, but someone said that they thought that this song would be better suited to Reputation.
Nina:Yeah, this is a good preview of Reputation, for sure. That's a really good point. Ooh, I'm gonna file that away for later. All right, so moving on, you got my number seven. What was yours?
J. Xander:My number seven is blank space. What?
Nina:That's my number one. That is my number one. It might
J. Xander:be my favorite Taylor song. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, last time.
Nina:You're last, you can do, you can do whatever you want with it.
J. Xander:Well, last time we did a countdown, you got my number one, like. a little bit before so yeah payback that's true this is payback um but no it's i i really like this taylor song because it is the first time that for me like i felt that she was not necessarily making fun of herself but like acknowledging all the different rumors about her and just saying oh that's fun Maybe I'll just write a song from that perspective for the hell of it. And it, for me, was like a big turning point in making me a fan of hers. She just, wasn't on my radar before I heard Blank Space and I was like, Oh, that's really interesting. Whether it's true or not, I think it's really cool that she's owning it.
Nina:Yeah. So I have a little different take on it and it's why it's my number one. When I listened to an interview with her about it, and she was talking about, she was reading all of these headlines, and she was reading all of these news stories about her, about how she's this manipulator, and she's scheming, and she's this, like, terrible person, and she thought to herself, you know, actually, that's a really interesting character. And that's the perspective that she wrote from was, they've made up this character about me, let me give it to them, and I love that. So I think it was more than her making fun of herself, I think it was more about, you know, when Taylor Swift was coming up, we were still very much in purity culture and there are all these old interviews coming out of these 40 year old men asking Britney Spears who's not even 18 yet if she'll tell them whether she's a virgin or not publicly in front of an audience. And it's so gross the way that we treat women in this industry is disgusting and I think Taylor was definitely A victim of that. And I think my impression of her initially was due to a lot of that. And this is when I really started to unpack that narrative that we tell about women in the industry was because of this song. Um, and so it just, It made me really fall in love with her as a songwriter because it felt like so much more to me and it made me look up to her a lot because it felt like she was calling out this cultural misogyny quite a bit. She's called herself a feminist before. This to me is her most feminist song, actually. More than Mad Woman, more than The Man. It, it is. It's so interesting to take that narrative that we tell about women and flip it and, and give it back to people in this way. It's almost like the anti Barbie movie, kind of. Like, it's just, it, I, I just, I love and appreciate the song so much. The imagery in it also is, Top notch. The lyrics are incredible, I get drunk on jealousy, Darling I'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream. It's so amazing to me. And what's also really interesting about this, just from a pure songwriting standpoint, is the chorus is really long. It's a really long chorus, but the melodies are so tight and we're on such a journey that we're just following her. And we're happy too. And so I don't think it's her best pop song because the chorus is so long, but I do, it is my absolute, my number one favorite Taylor song. It's just, I think it's masterful.
J. Xander:Not Nina dropping a whole dissertation about T Swizzle. That was, that was crazy.
Nina:I love this woman. I love that song. I love feminism. What do you want from me?
J. Xander:Yeah, it's a great song. I think the only reason it's like number seven for me as opposed to like being higher up is because when I listen to Taylor Swift, I kind of want to get whisked away in the emotion of it all. And for me, the song is a little bit more on the like campy side, which she's, you know, trying to be. Um, yeah, which is why I like it.
Nina:Oh yeah, and you know, I think that's how I thought of her previously before this song, was kind of the more romantic, emotional songs. I don't know if I've talked about this here before, but I think I was talking about it to a friend a couple weeks ago. Red got me through a rough breakup, so I liked Taylor, and Red will always have a special place in my heart, but this was when I was like, oh my god, this is incredible, she knows what she's doing, not that she didn't before, but I was like, damn.
J. Xander:Yeah. Yeah, I was the same way.
Nina:Yeah. Okay, J, I think we're on number six?
J. Xander:Yes, so my number six is clean.
Nina:Okay, that was my number nine that we accidentally skipped.
J. Xander:Oh, shoot. Oh. So, okay. Do you want to talk about why Clean was your favorite? So
Nina:Clean was my number nine. When I think of this album, I think of it as like a pop album and Clean is so emotional that that's why it's kind of more toward the bottom for me in terms of the album. I do just personally freaking love this song. What a breakup song. What a story of resilience. The concept of playing with like clean as in cleanliness and clean as in being free of an addiction in terms of a breakup is just such an interesting concept and that reassurance that you're gonna be okay after all the pain. We need more songs like this. Honest to God, the number of girlies that I know who have sobbed to the song a few months after their breakup is so high. Or even immediately after. Just reassurance that even if you're not in that place where you know it's gonna be okay, somebody's telling you that it's gonna be okay. And so for that alone, it makes my list. Um, it is a little further down though because it is kind of a departure for this album a little bit.
J. Xander:I would agree. For me, it's higher up because of the production behind it. And I am also a huge, huge fan of Imogen Heap. She's one of the artists that got me kind of into the music technology side of things. I remember she was like on David Letterman playing a keyboard with one hand and then like a digital pad of some sort with the other. And I was like, I don't know what that is. I don't know what the hell she's doing, but. I want to learn everything about that. That's so cool. I think she's like the Tony Stark of music, in my opinion. And, um, she's, she's like a, a fairy of clocks. And that's exactly what this song sounds like to me. It's very, it's just a very interesting, intriguing sound. And then that coupled with the lyrics and everything. I'm just like, this is very, it is the kind of like romance I was hoping to get whisked away in when I am listening to Taylor Swift, if you will.
Nina:Okay, so I never thought about it in that context. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to listen again and think about it from the production standpoint, but I mean, it's a great, great song.
J. Xander:What's interesting that this album goes back and forth between very like stylized, heavy, like electronic 80s pop and this weird kind of sound with this song and I Know Places. Which are kind of out there.
Nina:Yeah, what's weird about this album is it's a breakup album, but it's oddly hopeful for a breakup album.
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:Yeah, That's just occurring to me. there are a lot of moments of, like, there's a lot of hopefulness in it, and there's not a lot of, I hate you, you suck. There's a lot of, this isn't working, and I'm upset about it. And there's a lot of love and understanding for the other half of this couple that it's just, for whatever reason, is not working with. We can talk about theories about that all day long regarding... Mr. Styles, but, um, it is just interesting. It's, it's oddly hopeful. It is still believing in love and it is very loving of oneself while also making fun of oneself, which, which shows a lot of self love. If you can, if you can make fun of yourself, you probably, well, there's a fine line, right? Like there's, there's a sweet little window of like, I love myself so I can tease myself.
J. Xander:And then just like actually shitting on yourself, which is not, you know.
Nina:Yeah, there's a very fine line between the two.
J. Xander:That's very true.
Nina:But yeah, this is an oddly hopeful breakup album that's just occurring to me now.
J. Xander:I didn't think about that either. That's, that's very interesting. It's like it's romanticizing even like the worst parts of their times together.
Nina:Yeah, it's very funny. All right. So my number six is Out of the Woods.
J. Xander:This is my number two.
Nina:No!
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:Really?
J. Xander:Yeah, I love this song. Okay. And I think it sounds, I know we weren't gonna talk about the mixing that much, but I think it sounds incredible on the the new re recording of it.
Nina:Okay, so this is my number six. It took me a while to learn to love this song. I'm so embarrassed to admit this, but this is a safe space. It took me a while to get behind the song and really like it, but when I got it, I fucking got it. I was like, oh my god. The repetitive chorus turned me off because it made me anxious. And then I realized that was the point.
J. Xander:Oh, right over her head, y'all.
Nina:This was nine years ago. I have a master's degree now. I just wanna, I just wanna put those caveats out there. But it was like, come on, Nina. Like, even when I had the realization of oh, that's why. I was like, like, huge facepalm, um, and now I love this song and it is my number six. Why is it your number two?
J. Xander:For me, because I am a huge, huge fan of Jack Antonoff because I don't know why. When I was like in high school or just getting out of it, really, I was that weird kid that had like an obsession with 80s movies. Like, I
Nina:don't think that makes you the weird kid. I think we all had that phase.
J. Xander:Well, one of them, but yeah, like stuff like Breakfast Club and...
Nina:Oh, we all had that phase.
J. Xander:Yeah, and like Say Anything. And let me just say this real quick. Those movies, they had me feeling crazy for like a big portion of my life because I was like, why don't I look that old? And even now... As I'm 30 years old, I still don't look as old as those actors. That's crazy.
Nina:That's true. We were like, yeah, let's have a 27 year old play a 14 year old.
J. Xander:Yeah. Thank God those days are are long over and done with.
Nina:Still happening every once in a while. But no, we're, we're moving away from it, thank God.
J. Xander:Yeah, probably not as much though. But yeah, I, I feel like just his brand, his Sonic brand really captures that era and that aesthetic. Like immediately when I hear one of his pieces, I'm in an 80s movie. Which is how I feel about one of my later picks also.
Nina:Okay. All right. Yeah, it does have a very 80s style to it. And it's surprising that for like the lyric subject that it's not more like 80s horror. That it is just kind of like 80s action, like maybe high school action. I don't know.
J. Xander:I'm also kind of obsessed with the fact that this version of Taylor is the one that she chose to represent herself like in this album in the Look What You Made Me Do video.
Nina:Mmm.
J. Xander:I think that's really funny and cool that she chose to do like this very unglamorous zombie version of herself.
Nina:Listen, Taylor never does anything on accident. So that is, that's very interesting. What, what is next? I think you're on five.
J. Xander:Yeah, my number five is New Romantics.
Nina:That's my number five, too!
J. Xander:Oh, finally! It took three cou three countdowns for us to finally settle on the same placement for a song. That's awesome.
Nina:That's really fun, oh my god!
J. Xander:Wait, let me just say this real quick. Cause when she put out the regular 1989 and then the deluxe version, she put Wonderland, this song, and You Are In Love as bonus tracks, right? And I like, I love all three of those songs, like a lot more than the songs that were on the original. So I'm just like, Taylor, what were you, what were you thinking? I don't get it.
Nina:No, I feel the same way. I was listening to I Wish You Would and I was like, it's not that this is a bad song. It's just that it's not as good as New Romantics or Wonderland. So why is this? I'm, I'm, you and I, this is, this is our moment where we're on the same exact page.
J. Xander:I don't think it's better than any of the three songs that they're writing on, honestly. Um, which is weird because that was also produced by Jack, but that was like, you know.
Nina:Yeah, or How You Get the Girl. I was listening to that too, and I was like, this is not as good as New Romantics. Why was New Romantics on the deluxe version?
J. Xander:Yeah, maybe she was doing that on purpose. Like, oh, this really cool single right here will make people buy the deluxe version, you know?
Nina:Yeah, if they've already bought the original. Yeah. That's a good point. Maybe. Maybe that was a business decision. Sneaky. Sneaky Swiftie. Speaking of Swifties, there are a lot of Swifties who say that this is her best pop song, and while I contend that it did not get the recognition it deserves, I don't think it's the best. Clearly I have it at number 5 on her pop album. It's difficult to talk about Taylor's best because she's played with genre so much throughout her career. But this is one of my favorite Taylor songs and it is great when you're on the treadmill. Let me tell you what, it'll keep you going.
J. Xander:I could see that. Yeah, the sound here is just the pure just like sonics of this sound for me is just like, Whoa, what is this? I don't know that I've heard a song that sounds quite like this before or after. It's very unique. I'm obsessed with just that part of it alone. Honestly, I couldn't even tell you like, a lot of the lyrics that she's singing in the song, because I'm so obsessed with just like how this song actually sounds. So yeah, it just goes to show how important Sonic branding and identity is.
Nina:The chorus is a little wild. It's a little Wild Wild West and all over the place in terms of concept, but if you were to ask me what is it like being in your early 20s in New York City, I have never been in my early 20s in New York City, but I would tell you New Romantics captures it perfectly. It's an entire movie in one song. That one line, the rumors are terrible and cruel, but honey, most of them are true. Oh my god, what a self own. She really does make fun of herself quite a lot in this album in really, like, interesting ways.
J. Xander:That's great.
Nina:All right, J, what was your number four?
J. Xander:Four... Okay, I know this is not like a big song of hers or whatever, but I was just in a certain mood as I was going through all the songs and I almost cried while listening to this one. So my number four is You Are In Love, which was produced by Jack Antonoff, and I am... I'm just, I'm really a sucker for when songs break the so called rules of songwriting. And this one, for me, kind of does it twice. It does it because first of all, the chorus doesn't hit until about like a minute 30 seconds in, which is like really late into a song nowadays. But I think it works for this song because it's building up to this big realization People have when they're actually in love. So when it hits, it's super impactful. And also this song is interesting because. It feels like Taylor is narrating someone else's love story. So in that moment when we get to the bridge, she finally switches the perspective to talk about herself again. And she goes, now I understand why they lost their minds. and fought the wars and why I've spent my whole life trying to put it into words. That's such a deep moment for me just to look like hear that and think about her career in its entirety and I'm like that's that's beautiful so that really hit me in the feels so yeah I love this song and it also again sounds like an 80s. Soundtrack.
Nina:Yeah, I'm gonna listen to it with a new perspective now and that's what made this list really hard because there were a lot of times that I was like, I want to put all of them in the top 10.
J. Xander:Yeah, but it was hard.
Nina:Yeah, it was super hard. Um, but I'm gonna re listen to that song with your analysis in mind and maybe fall deeper in love with it. So my number four is I Know Places.
J. Xander:It's not on my list.
Nina:No. I don't know why I like this song so much, the imagery of the hounds and foxes is just such an interesting lyric and I love that she brings it back in the bridge. I will say the drums on the drop chorus in this new one sound like Logic Drummer and I do not mean that as a compliment, I, it just, it doesn't sound really full during a really sparse section where it's only the drums and you want them to sound really full, but that was just like a little tiny nitpicky thing. The melodies are really fun to sing along to. And, it just reminds me of all these rumors during this time period that Taylor Swift would zip herself up in a suitcase so that she wouldn't be photographed.
J. Xander:She would do what?
Nina:So there are all of these like pictures of security guards very carefully carrying a suitcase and it's like why don't you just wheel a suitcase and it's like a two man carry on a suitcase and it's like why why would you do that and so there are all these rumors that she used to zip herself in a suitcase so that she wouldn't be photographed and at one point Zayn made a comment about how Taylor Swift used to zip herself up in a suitcase and they tried to be like, no, it was a metaphor.
J. Xander:Okay.
Nina:I want suitcase Taylor confirmed so badly.
J. Xander:Okay. The members that are just listening right now to the podcast, you can't see this, but my mouth is to the floor right now.
Nina:I didn't know you didn't know You didn't know this?
J. Xander:No. I am shook. That's funny as hell.
Nina:That is so funny. Oh my god. Um,
J. Xander:so anyway,
Nina:that's what that song makes me think of. So I also just think it's really funny and very dramatic. Um, but yeah, Suitcase Taylor.
J. Xander:Okay.
Nina:Wait, I mean, there's a very, like, hunting imagery to this and she is talking about, people with cameras coming after her and the more we learn about, like, what happened to Britney and I was watching, actually, the Beckham documentary this past weekend, which I highly recommend because Posh is effing funny. I love that woman. I, if she needed a kidney, she needs to call me. But so I was watching that documentary and they were talking about when their son Brooklyn was first born and it made me truly believe that the entire industry of paparazzi is fucking evil. The way that they would shout things at Brooklyn, the way that they would follow them and hound them and stuff. So I think she's making an interesting point with this song about like they really are being hunted and hounded and that's not right. There's a lot of talk about how celebrities, well they put themselves in this situation so they deserve what they get like this is part of it it's like no I think every human being has a right to privacy. I think they share with us a lot and that's a gift which is what Prince said specifically. Um, but I, I think, I think it should be absolutely illegal to take a picture of a child that you do not know.
J. Xander:I think so too.
Nina:Especially, especially after that doc and all the stuff that's kind of coming out about different celebrities and their kids. It's awful. Yeah. So it's just an interesting time in her life and what she's dealing with. Alright, we're moving on to number three. Did I, I, wait, so what's your number three?
J. Xander:My number three is Wildest Dreams.
Nina:That's my number three too.
J. Xander:This is crazy. Our number five was the same. Our number four is neither of us had them on our list. On our list. And number three is the same. That's crazy.
Nina:Oh my god. 1989 magic. I love this. This is so fun. All right, J, why is Wildest Dreams your number three?
J. Xander:This is gonna sound so bad, but honestly, When I first heard this song, I thought it was a Lana Del Rey song, so, and I was like, I was like, this is the best, at the time, I was like, this is the best Taylor's ever sounded, like, why? I don't understand why, but I feel like, I feel like she was a fan, and part of me believes that she was trying to do that on purpose, because why else would she call her back for a collaboration later, you know? That's just how I'm thinking.
Nina:I would actually love to hear Lana cover this. I feel like that would be really fantastic.
J. Xander:What if they re recorded it together? That'd be so cool.
Nina:That would be better than Snow on the Beach.
J. Xander:I think so.
Nina:So that's really funny that you say this. Actually I was listening to our friend Cati Landry has a song out called Mind's Eye and it has a few moments that lyrically really reminds me of this song. And I remember thinking that like they come from kind of a Not really, almost a similar place, a really wistful way of looking at being in love when you know it's not gonna last. Cati's is a little more like, we broke up, but Taylor's a little more grounded. In the moment, like you know, like you're with them and you know it's not gonna turn out. I think this song is brilliant. That non lyric hook that comes after the title is so dreamy and just floats away in the most beautiful manner and the prosody of that, fantastic. The verses are lower, they feel really grounded, the drums are like a heartbeat moving into the chorus, and it just takes off into the stratosphere. It's, it's phenomenal. Like, this song is, is amazing to me. I love this song.
J. Xander:Yeah, I, I agree. This is one.
Nina:If we did an all time Taylor top 10, this would probably make it.
J. Xander:Yeah, I almost put this one at number one, honestly. Like, my top three, like, I really struggled with. I know they're the top three for me anyway. I just don't know what order I'm gonna put them in. Um, but yeah, I agree. There's some of her songs. Well just Some songs in general where I feel like the chorus, I'm like, there's something about it that's like missing. It doesn't quite get to that mark for me, but this one like absolutely does. And I think it's for the exact same like moment that you're talking about the uh, uh, or whatever that is.
Nina:Who cares what it is? It's great. It's perfect. It's absolutely perfect the way it's sung, the way it's produced, all of it. Perfect. Um, I will say, there are some new harmonies, or in the mix, they're just more forward toward the end, and that was really interesting for me, because it's almost like you're trying to land the plane. Like, you're trying to bring it back to Earth. Like, you're trying to ground this very high, wistful melody with these harmonies, and that was one of the production elements that I actually liked better in this version.
J. Xander:Oh.
Nina:It was just that those harmonies were either more forward or they had like a different effect on them that just made them more noticeable to me and made them a little more gritty. Like you're coming out of the dream. And so I really enjoyed that.
J. Xander:Cool. I'll have to re listen with that in mind.
Nina:It stood out to me almost like in the car a few days ago when I was listening to it. I was like, wait a minute, this feels different. And I went, that was one of the songs that I went back and forth between. I was like, Oh, I actually, I like the new version better. So good on you, Christopher Rowe. Good job. All right, J, what's your number two?
J. Xander:Well, I already said my number two was out of the woods, so do we want to just talk about Style?
Nina:So, okay, my number two is Style. Is that your number one?
J. Xander:Yeah, because I'm like, Style cannot not be on her list. Otherwise, she shouldn't be doing this, so.
Nina:I shouldn't even be making a podcast if Style isn't at least in the top three. I will say I wrestled with whether Style was my number one or not.
J. Xander:Oh yeah.
Nina:Versus Blank Space. I just love Blank Space so much for the dissertation that I gave. But yeah, J, why is Style your number one?
J. Xander:I think this is honestly my number one Taylor Swift song of all time. Yeah. Honestly, just because it's like, again, there's some of her melodies I feel like she tries to fit in too many words sometimes, which is very, you see that a lot when like, country, songwriters try to do something that's a little bit more like mainstream. But with this one, I just feel like there's, I don't feel a moment like that. And also again, I'm a huge concept writer. So for me, like her using all that, like James Dean and, you know, like all the clothes references and whatnot. I'm like, yes, this is exactly like, if I were to try to write a Taylor Swift song, this is the kind of song that I would want it to sound like.
Nina:You're right. The prosody of talking about clothes and how that can also feel like really sexual versus the, the title Style. Like it's, it's so good. This was actually the reference track for my song that's coming out in a few weeks. Magnetic. We looked at it a lot. I don't think we quite made it. We're never going to make that Max Martin magic without Max Martin.
J. Xander:Hard, man.
Nina:I hope we came close. When they were like, what do you want it to sound like? I'm like, I want it to have the same amount of sidechain that Style does and they're like bet, say less. We got it. I will say, this is one of the ones that I prefer the original production Like, it was noticeable to me.
J. Xander:I'm gonna have to agree. Yeah.
Nina:Yeah, this was the one track that it was really noticeable to me. And I wonder if it's because it was, it is pretty sparse for Max Martin. And so, all of the elements just like really shine really nicely. in his mix. Um, so I don't know if that's what made the difference or what didn't. This is when we all realized that 1989 was almost entirely about Harry Styles. In One Direction's next album, they came out with Perfect, which has a very similar sound to Style. And is really similar in the way that, like, we never go out of style, baby you're perfect, just, there's so many great back and forths there that are so petty. Can you imagine? Can you imagine if TikTok had existed when Taylor and Harry broke up? The drama. No one would have been able to escape it.
J. Xander:No one would have been safe.
Nina:No one would have been safe. You know what? Actually, I feel like they wouldn't have been able to be friends. Like, and I think now they are. I think the drama's been like completely blown out of proportion. It was a bad breakup. They've both grown. It's been nine years. People, Taylor's not upset about a guy from nine years ago. Like, and they're clearly like, at least friendly with each other when they see each other. So. I, I don't know why people are like, Harry Styles is over. First of all, in what world? And secondly, like, Taylor doesn't even want that. So, calm down.
J. Xander:Uh, Harry Styles will be just fine. But anyway, yeah, this song is great. I mean, besides, like, the little mix things, like, there's no real criticisms I can give to it either.
Nina:No, this song is, is a perfect pop song.
J. Xander:I agree.
Nina:Even in the moments where she does vary, like in the second verse, when she gets a little angry. At the end of it and then goes into the pre I mean, it's so interesting. I do think the vocal delivery was better in the original too because it's a little more unsure. It's a little more hurt. Yeah, and this new one was a little more confident and I don't think the song calls for that But that could just be me
J. Xander:people were actually saying that well something similar about like Blank Space Also, they were saying like she sounds really happy in this one And she's supposed to
Nina:I could see that, but that also works for the character that she's playing.
J. Xander:I agree, so.
Nina:So I'm not, I'm not mad about the difference between the original Blank Space and this Blank Space, because I just thought she sounded more confident, not necessarily happy, but like just confident in the moment. I mean, she's been singing the song for almost 10 years now, and then I think confidence in how it turned out and how it was perceived, I think there might have been a level of, am I doing the right thing here by writing the song? Which I think we've all had when we're doing something really out of pocket.
J. Xander:Yeah.
Nina:Yeah, is that like hesitation, that uncertainty. I was suffering from that a few weeks ago, really pretty badly. And that has everything to do with the producer, helping you through it and just having friends around you and supporting you. But Style, yeah, I think, I think to wrap it up is a perfect, perfect pop song and an amazing breakup song.
J. Xander:I agree when a lot of people have been jokingly calling this album like the pop bible and when I hear that I immediately think of Style. So
Nina:Yeah, I mean you could pull everything that we learned about in our master's degree from Style. Probably.
J. Xander:Probably. Yeah.
Nina:We could do a whole episode on it maybe. Let's not. Let's not and say we did. Yeah. All right, J, you ready to wrap things up? Okay, so in our final segment of the week, besides 1989, what is your Playback Pick of this week?
J. Xander:So my Playback Pick of the week, it's gonna be The big TikTok hit Greedy by Tate McRae. And one of the reasons why is because this song sounds a lot like, or a lot of people were saying that it sounds a lot like Timbaland would produce it. Particularly the song Promiscuous. By him and Nelly Furtado, and I remember when I was growing up distinctly, that song had to have changed something in my brain chemistry. I'm not kidding, because when I heard it, I was like, this is, this sounds so weird. I don't know why. I cannot, to this day.
Nina:I didn't even know what promiscuous meant.
J. Xander:I don't, I didn't.
Nina:I had to look it up.
J. Xander:I didn't either, and, and I was like, I don't care. It just, it feels good.
Nina:It just worked.
J. Xander:Yeah, and I was. I had the pleasure of seeing him give a masterclass here at the Kennedy Center this past Sunday. And he didn't speak about that song in particular, but he just said something like, it just, you know, I just produce until it feels good. And the song feels good. You know, so it's just like, there's not really much to say. It's a great top line, a really interesting beat, I think. It's great. Good job Tate McRae.
Nina:I think that as an industry and as a people, we put a little too much influence on the term genius. Because that word just flies about a lot, and then the next time someone comes out with something that's maybe not so good, then it's like an immediate, it's an immediate like, value assignment, right? And it also takes away from, you can learn to get better at songwriting, you can learn to get better at producing, there's a lot of, if you're not good at it immediately, then why try? And so, I'm really hesitant to say like, so and so is a genius, it's, that to me is really, really rare. Timbaland is a genius. He just is. Like, he's one of those people that I would assign that label to. I think a lot of people are well educated, they worked on their craft, etc. And I think he did all of those things as well, but I, I think he is a true genius.
J. Xander:I would agree. Yeah.
Nina:Like, I can go on a rant about how we need to eliminate that word from the lexicon, and we would all be better for it, but Timbaland would be the exception. He's one of, like, few people that I'd be like, he's a genius, just naturally.
J. Xander:Mhm. Yeah, and he's also a hard worker. He said Missy Elliott made him do like thousands of tracks before she liked anything for the Super Duper Fly album
Nina:Wow Can you imagine like I would just walk away from that producer like at one point do you just walk away? Be like, uh, this is not working. But no that I mean Good on Missy and good on Timbaland because that was iconic. They made it work. Yeah. How was it? Did you, uh, get any, like, nuggets of wisdom from Timbaland that you can share with our listeners?
J. Xander:Well, one particular thing was just him saying, you gotta For me, he was talking about himself, but this is like, for me, I like to hear all the music around me, and he takes this box of Kleenex that's just like on this table across from him, and he just bangs it on the table, and he's like, to you that might just be a box of Kleenex. To me, that's a really dope snare song that's gonna be on like the next number one that you hear on the radio. And I was like, damn, that's crazy.
Nina:Incredible. How incredible of a person. I'm just, I was really jealous when I saw your Instagram story.
J. Xander:It was amazing. Yeah.
Nina:That looked fun. It was. I almost Facetimed you. Be like, just let me sit in. You would have hung up on me. That's fine.
J. Xander:I don't know. Cause I was like, I surprisingly was like super up close. So, he would have seen me just like with your face next to me, it would have been really funny.
Nina:Hi dad.
J. Xander:Hello. For me, I'm like, hello Sonic father, cause I don't feel like I'd be a producer if it wasn't for him, so.
Nina:Oh my god, that's so funny. Okay, so, my Playback Pick this week, this is kind of out of left field, but it got stuck in my head after listening to it on the radio, and I've been listening to it over and over, is Crimson and Clover. The Tommy James and Shondell's version. That old, old song. Um, there's something so interesting about the outro. And my mom was saying, like we were in the car together, she's like, no one had heard anything like this before, this kind of like vocal effect that they put on it. And it's so interesting. And so I've been listening to it. I've been listening to a lot of like 60s and 70s music just because I'm looking for melodic inspiration. My friend Julie did a rendition of it that's really good. Her name is I Am Snow Angel, and you guys should definitely all go check out her cover because that is, like, right behind the original, my favorite rendition that I've ever heard, and it's a great song. And who the hell knows what it means? Who cares? The melody's good.
J. Xander:Yeah. Sometimes lyrics don't matter if the melody is good enough, so.
Nina:That's true, and sometimes like, you know, psychedelic things were really interesting back then, so it was like a, it's a deeper meaning, but what does it mean, kind of conversation that people can surmise upon and talk about. And I think a lot of times that is what's really important with lyric is just getting people talking.
J. Xander:That's true.
Nina:Alright J, do you have any final comments about our playback Taylor's version?
J. Xander:I don't, but just shout out to Taylor in general for doing something like this because it's like not something we've ever seen before and she's stirring up this big conversation. It is unfortunate all that happened but I really respect the fact that she took this really shitty situation and you know she made lemonade out of lemons with it because all these re recordings, you know, it might have been a pain in the ass to do but at the end of the day, I feel like it got way more people talking about her. Now she's you know, the biggest pop act in the world. Really. Let's just be real
Nina:Yeah, I mean, I hope she gets her masters back, um, I, I hope she has them already. But I was thinking about this earlier, how many musicians, songwriters, how many people in our industry are now better educated about these contracts and these rights because of Taylor? Because not only did she do this, she educated her fans every step of the way. So that we all understood the why, because that is the most important part of this. It's not just can she, but why did she? And she didn't just make it about, you know, Scooter Braun bullying her as much as people like to say that she did. It was a business decision. It was about owning her art. And that is, that is so fucking punk rock to me. Like, this is the most kick ass thing I think I've ever seen in the music industry in my lifetime.
J. Xander:Yeah, and I remember
Nina:Yeah, little boys can smash a guitar on stage, but you'll never be as punk rock as Taylor Swift re recording all of her albums just to stick it to Scooter Braun.
J. Xander:Yeah, so, good for her.
Nina:Good for her. Everybody listen to 1989, Taylor's version.
J. Xander:Go out and... Write a good song.
Nina:Write a good song. Go create some good in the world. We love you. Until next time. Bye.
J. Xander:Bye.