Songwriters Nina Blu and J. Xander deep dive into the importance of lyrics and typical pitfalls that have plagued them and fellow artists alike. It's a lyrical round up of the good, the bad, the ugly, and the wait, what? They discuss how to work with lyric and melody, the best advice they've gotten through the years, and the importance of trusted critique.
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Songwriters Nina Blu and J. Xander deep dive into the importance of lyrics and typical pitfalls that have plagued them and fellow artists alike. It's a lyrical round up of the good, the bad, the ugly, and the wait, what? They discuss how to work with lyric and melody, the best advice they've gotten through the years, and the importance of trusted critique.
Listen to the songs we talk about here
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AI Generated Transcript
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Welcome to Playback, the podcast about what's hot and trending in music right now. I'm singer songwriter Nina Blu.
J. Xander:And I am singer songwriter producer J. Xander.
Nina:Alright, J, getting into some of the news of this week, the U. S. has recorded music revenues hit an all time high of 8. 4 billion, with a B, in the first half of 2023. Streaming saw a double digit growth and accounted for 84 percent of all revenues. Knowing how many trillions of streams there were, what do you think about this news?
J. Xander:I'm gonna quote Snoop Dogg here and ask where is all the money at?
Nina:Where is the money at?
J. Xander:Because you know those numbers are great, but are those artists getting paid? I don't think they are.
Nina:We're not.
J. Xander:I'm certainly not.
Nina:Once again, streaming was the primary driver of both revenue and growth, increasing 10. 3 percent over the first half of 2022 to reach 7 billion, accounting for 84 percent of all revenue. This is the fourth year that streaming has accounted for 83 to 84 percent of the overall total. They did say that the subscription model is providing more profitable than the advertising model. So if you're buying into Spotify or Apple Music, or they mentioned Amazon a couple times in the Billboard article, that's better than just listening to something for free and then the ad revenue. So it looks like the market is putting more stress on subscription models. This is really interesting. I was listening to an interview with someone who was in SAG AFTRA and they were talking about the subscription models in film and television with Netflix and the various different ones that we subscribe to, Paramount, etc. They were saying that the business keeps growing every year, and they're not showing us the numbers, and that's what makes it sketchy, and that's how I feel about this news too.
J. Xander:Yeah, I mean, it's basically the same thing, just like large corporations saying, oh, you know, we're doing great, but everybody that's under them and actually contributing and making these projects are like, are we though? I can't tell. I don't know.
Nina:Who's doing great here, the C suite or the songwriters? So we have some more business news. The BMI sale news, keeping an eye on it. It has turned to a for profit model. And there are some reports that it could be beneficial to songwriters. There are also a lot of reports that it couldn't be. I think they're trying to combat some bad press. Apparently, BMI is going to try and use the revenue from the sale to reinvest in itself, which all the hot girls are doing right now. The CEO, Mike O'Neill, said that they were trying to expand their distribution services and their priorities expanding outside the U. S. So that could be beneficial to BMI songwriters. Um, It just, it kind of depends. This is a really complicated story to get into. There's so many levels to it.
J. Xander:I think it's, it's too early to say.
Nina:It is. It's still too early. I mean, I was trying to explain a split sheet to my aunt today. And she was like, well, as long as you understand the terms, I was like, it's not just that, like that's industry standard. There's so much that a lot of people don't understand about the music industry. And then you add in, something like a private equity firm that this is really complicated. I don't think anybody's going to be able to determine how it turns out until it turns out.
J. Xander:Right. There's no, yeah, just like you said, there's no way of telling right now.
Nina:No. Explaining a PRO to my family is gonna be, I guess, my next challenge after explaining a split sheet. Our final bit of news here, switching to ASCAP after the ASCAP BMI beef. Um, the president of ASCAP, Paul Williams, is set to appear before Congress, urging them to adopt legislation on artificial intelligence in music. Stand with Songwriters Day is September 21st. I love that we have a day. I think that might become my new favorite holiday. What about you, J?
J. Xander:Yeah, we should. Sounds fun.
Nina:They're kind of luring lawmakers into a party tonight. So this podcast episode will air on the 21st most likely. And then tonight on the 20th, Wednesday night, they're throwing a concert with a whole bunch of songwriters performing for congressional members. That is one of the best ways to get to mingle with people and get to meet people and get them to really listen to your message is throw them a party with some free favors.
J. Xander:That'll do it.
Nina:You're in the DC area, it's too bad you can't pop by.
J. Xander:Not now.
Nina:So they have six principles for AI that they're pitching to Congress. The first is that human creators come first. They prioritize rights and compensation for human creativity. Consent, which is something that you and I have talked about on a really big level. Protecting the right to decide whether one's work is included in an AI training license. Compensation, making sure that creators are paid fairly when their work is used in any way by AI, which is best accomplished in a free market, not with government mandated licensing that essentially eliminates consent. I'm worried about that phrasing. Uh, we'll come back to it. Credit when creators work are used in new AI generated music. You and I have also talked about that. Transparency in identifying AI versus human generated works. And retaining metadata, global consistency, an even paying field that values intellectual property across the global music and data ecosystem. I was very happy with those six principles. I think they're a great starting point. After our AI episode, J, what do you think about that?
J. Xander:Yeah, I think it's a great starting point still. I think it's a great happy medium to kind of get everything Just find like a middle ground, because AI music is not going anywhere, so there has to be like something put in place.
Nina:Now, in a couple of the articles that I read, they said Grimes is working with AI. They really feel like that's the new forefront, like that's the next thing. And my sister in law is a cyber security lawyer and she was saying AI is not going to replace workers. It's going to replace the people who don't know how to use AI. And I thought that was great motivation to get invested and involved with what's going on in our industry, especially with the creative industries and AI.
J. Xander:Right. And I mean, AI being involved in music is not a new thing. It's been around for years and years at this point, especially anybody that's familiar with like the iZotope stuff. But I mean, that hasn't replaced mixing engineers by any means. So it is really just a matter of just like, how are you going to use this and adopt it to your own benefit, like there's still positives to it.
Nina:There are but I am happy to see the protections, especially when it comes to copyright, when it comes to human creators getting paid! Yeah, For their intellectual property and being protected for it. The consent thing is a big thing for me. Like, I don't want people I'm not at that level, but I don't want people feeding like My voice into an AI and going like, Hey, come up with a Nina Blu style song. It's like at I'm not cool with that.
J. Xander:Right. I, I wouldn't be either. I don't think most people would be, honestly.
Nina:It, it feels a little, a little violating, Okay, looking at the current top ten, they're all songs that we know, we love, we've discussed before. Number ten is Dance the Night, Dua Lipa. Number nine is Fukumean by Gunna, which has it, I think it's gone down one, I believe. I can't remember if it was eight or ten last week.
J. Xander:Old faithful. Yep, it's still up there.
Nina:Been here since the start of the podcast. Holding strong. Snooze by SZA popped back up to eight. Bad idea, right? Olivia Rodrigo is number seven. Last Night, Morgan Wallen has fallen to number six. I don't think it's going to pop up to number one again to beat that record.
J. Xander:Dang.
Nina:I know. Cruel Summer, Taylor Swift, is number five and I will say I was at a concert Monday night with my sister and that song was played before the artist came out as kind of like, you know, in between sets between the opener and between the main artist and all the girlies got down to that bridge. We had so much fun singing it together.
J. Xander:That's amazing.
Nina:Loved it. It was such a good time. Number four, Fast Car, Luke Combs. Number three, I Remember Everything, Zach Bryan featuring Kacey Musgraves. So that popped back up again. Number two, Paint the Town Red with Doja Cat. So that has also been getting a lot of play since the VMAs. And number one, especially since the VMAs, is Vampire, Olivia Rodrigo. Do you have any comments about the movement?
J. Xander:Not really. It just seems like the same couple of songs. over and over again, just kind of playing musical chairs with each other.
Nina:Yeah, I feel that way too. I'm surprised that Olivia Rodrigo's song, Get Him Back, isn't doing better than Bad Idea Right. I think that's the TikTok trend that we still see going on, but I'll talk about Get Him Back in a little bit. Um, I will say that's one of my favorite songs off of her new album. Which is also all over the Hot 100. Were you part of that conversation like a year ago? We were talking about, are albums even relevant anymore? And then in the last year, we've seen albums just completely take over the Hot 100.
J. Xander:I don't believe so. That doesn't ring a bell.
Nina:I remember hearing a lot of talk online about like, are albums even relevant, especially for independent artists because that's a huge expense as opposed to putting out a single and then a single and then a single.
J. Xander:Right. I think it works better with, um, cause Olivia Rodrigo is not an independent artist. So I think for somebody like her. Like a Zach Bryan that already has recognition the album format works better because you know people are expecting stuff from them anyway, but for independent artists I think it's the opposite.
Nina:I think you gotta prove your bonafides, write some good singles. I think that's kind of where you start. We all really enjoy writing album tracks. Those are those tracks that are for us and for our fans, but you're not going to acquire new fans until you can prove that you can write something that's really catchy.
J. Xander:Right.
Nina:Is kind of my philosophy behind it. All right, guys, when we come back, we will be talking about lyrics. And what they're all about. Stay tuned. Welcome back to Playback, the music podcast. This week we're talking about the importance of lyrics J, this was one of the first classes that you and I had together, was a lyric writing class. Yeah. It's taking me back.
J. Xander:Yeah, and for those of you that don't know, Nina and I went to Berklee College of Music. We both got our masters in songwriting. And this was, yeah, it was one of the first things we talked about ever. Which is fitting, because most of the time when I talk to new songwriters or people that just kind of do it for fun on their own, usually they say that lyrics are the thing that they struggle with, like, the most. They're like, I have a bunch of ideas, but I don't necessarily know how to actually say them during a song in like a fun, creative way.
Nina:That's funny because I, going into this program, would have considered myself primarily a lyricist. Now I consider myself more of a topliner. mean, top line is just my favorite thing to do, which is melody and lyric together. But one of the first topics that you and I learned about that I feel like was a rude awakening for the whole class, I feel like we all rioted a little bit, was learning about missetting, which is funny because I haven't heard about it in any context outside of Berklee.
J. Xander:Right. Do you want to explain what that is for the audience?
Nina:Missetting is an odd concept to think about. Missetting is just about making sure that the natural stresses of the language that we're using coincide with what the melody and to a degree the melodic rhythm are doing. There are a lot of times that songwriters will mispronounce a word by moving the emphasis to the wrong syllable. Do you remember Ben saying that?
J. Xander:Right. Um, yeah, yeah. It was a thing that Pat said too like quite a couple of professors there say it. Um, because it's, I think it's one of the easiest ways to get the point across.
Nina:It's, it's a quick, that's when people ask me what missetting is, I usually just say, it's putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable and they go, ah, okay.
J. Xander:I did too.
Nina:Yeah. I was in a writing session recently and we were working on a melody and I was like, Oh wait, we can't do that. And someone stopped me and they were like, why? I was like, well, it's a misset. Like it doesn't sound good. And it was really easy to rearrange the lyrics so that it worked, but they stopped me and they were like, why does this even matter? J, do you think missetting plays a role? For anyone who might be like, well, is it really that big of a deal?
J. Xander:Yes, because it just, honestly, it makes what you're saying sound weird and kind of unnatural, like when you are singing, regardless of the genre, I still feel like it is a person just saying their thoughts and what they're really feeling, but to music. So if you start putting the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllable, it's, you know, it has the same effect. The listener will be like, okay, I get what you're saying, but why are you talking like that? That's weird. What's wrong with you?
Nina:It's, I've missed missettings many a time in a song until somebody pointed it out to me. And then there have been times where a missetting has like completely ruined a song for me that I can't unhear it. Can you think of any songs that like you can't listen to the miss set. It just drives you nuts.
J. Xander:Unconditionally by Katy Perry
Nina:That's a great example.
J. Xander:Uncondi-SHON-ally. Which that one is very unfortunate as well.
Nina:It is. You think about it got such powerhouse vocals that every time she goes up there unconditional, it hurts. It hurts me to my very core. One that I heard most recently that drove me nuts was Used to be Young with Miley Cyrus and she mispronounced remember. And that's one of those words that when I know that it's coming up, I wait and I listen. Another word that I wait for is memory or memories. I feel like those are the two words that I hear misset most often.
J. Xander:That's fair. Yeah. And you know, sometimes it happens in like professional songs as well, but the, the issue I think with it is that once somebody points it out, there's no unhearing it after that.
Nina:No. Another song that recently I really wanted to enjoy and I just couldn't because yes, I am a Swiftie was on Karma when she says envious instead of envious. It makes me nuts. Especially because if she had replaced envious with jealous The setting would have worked. It would have been perfect.
J. Xander:Oh, that's unfortunate.
Nina:And I feel like there might be a connotation to envious versus jealous, but for the most part they mean the same thing. So instead of her saying envious, that for you it's not, it could have been aren't you jealous, that for you it's not. I feel like That would have been better. I don't know. I am not one to tell Taylor Swift how to do things. Absolutely not. But every time I hear it, I can't, I just can't get down with the song
J. Xander:Right. And for those of you out there that want to get into like the really technical settings or aspects of like how to avoid missettings, if you're looking at like a piece of sheet music just keep in mind that your first-especially if you're in 4 4 time- your first and your third beat are always going to have more emphasis to them. So that's where you want to generally place the more important part of that word that you're trying to fit to music.
Nina:That was another thing that I struggled with a lot when it was first pointed out to us. You don't want to start on an and. You don't want that to be like,
J. Xander:Right,
Nina:beat one on the bar. You don't want it to be the, you want it to be something really prominent, something important to the lyric because you want to be able to emphasize that. And there have been a lot of times since learning that, that I've listened to songs and I've thought, wow, this would have hit so much better if the like more emotional words or the more pronounced words were on that one in that three. I was working in a song in 6/8, and that was a huge challenge to not misset, but it was really fun working with a different rhythm. And it was actually a little bit easier because you do have more opportunities for stress syllables. So sometimes. This is a big tip to songwriters out there, sometimes 4/4 is not the best, especially if you have a lyric that you want to write a song to as opposed to writing the music and then going into the lyrics.
J. Xander:That's true.
Nina:Yeah, sometimes timing can switch things up for you.
J. Xander:And for anyone wondering, it would still be basically the same thing, where like the first beat and every other one following that would be the stressed one.
Nina:Um, It did just have a more conversational tone to it. For example, like Something in the Orange is in 6/8 time. And that's where we got the inspiration for it. So if you have a really lyric heavy song, sometimes that's a good way to switch it up instead of just trying to hammer something into 4/4, see what the natural rhythm of what you're saying is, and can it fit. You know, mathematically, and just spending a minute trying to figure that out can take a song from like, well, this is good to, oh, wow, this is great. And I hear your lyrics and I feel them. So moving more, into concept work. Another thing that we like to talk about is, does the song get heavier? as it goes on. Do you continue to tell the story? Is there new information coming up? Because a lot of times when I get bored with a song, it's because the stakes don't get any higher as it goes on.
J. Xander:Right. I think that this also solves the problem of like what to do with verse two, which for most songwriters I think is the most difficult part of the song. So you, you want to take your listener on kind of a journey in a way where like Nina was saying everything kind of evolves. The fancy like Berklee ism way of explaining it is writing within the boxes. So each box has like a main idea representing like your big sections like your verse one. Verse two, bridge, or like final chorus, whatever you want to have towards the end there. And each one wants to kind of gradually evolve and express a bigger, more important idea as you go along.
Nina:It's a great way to organize things. Another way to look at it is, do you want to start with a concept in verse one and then explain the backstory in verse two? Or like, It's, it's almost like writing a novel when you're trying to plan out these sections, and sometimes just taking a minute to plan can help you write the lyrics even better.
J. Xander:Right. One of my favorite examples of like writing within the boxes is the song Beautiful by Christina Aguilera and written by Linda Perry. So for that song, verse one, it's, you know, the big idea is I am beautiful in every other way, kind of building yourself up. Verse two, she's talking to someone else. She's saying you and the bridge section is we are beautiful in every single way. So it kind of just has this natural build up where, you know, it kind of addresses everybody and why this message is important to everyone.
Nina:That's such a great example about a song just carrying more weight
J. Xander:Yeah, or if you want to get like super deep and philosophical with this method, another song that does this really well is Both Sides Now by Joni Mitchell. Because in the beginning she's talking about her metaphor clouds. And then she talks about love and how that's kind of confusing and can have like different multiple interpretations and like weird connotations involved with it. And then she talks about life, which is, you know, that's a huge journey from clouds to what is life actually.
Nina:That is a massive journey. That's a great example and that takes me into the next thing that we wanted to talk about was follow the metaphor and follow it to the very end. I remember, one of our professors called me out for this. She was like, do you know where this metaphor like ends up? And I thought, No. And she goes, really? Because it's central to your song. I was like, okay. And she's right. You, you need to follow the metaphor all the way to the end of the road. That's a metaphor right there. But what's at the end of the road? What are you trying to get to? What is there when you arrive? Right? If you're going to use that in your songwriting, where does this metaphor take you? It's a vehicle. It has to get you somewhere. If you were to take it all the way to the very end, and you can't go any further, like ultimately, what are you trying to say when you incorporate metaphors?
J. Xander:Yeah, and this also plays a big part in like the world you're trying to build within your song. So when I am teaching students songwriting, and I want them to kind of understand this, one song that I have them listen to, the older students, because there's a curse word in it, one song that I always have them listen to is Building a Mystery by Sarah McLachlan, and the reason why is because she does such, such a good job of sticking within this very scary language throughout the entire song where it's, like, you don't actually know this person, but you know to be afraid of them because of all the metaphors that she's using and all the language that she's sticking to throughout the entire song. That is a very well written song and it reminds me a lot of Vampire by Olivia Rodrigo, but just on a technical level, I would say that it's just a little bit more refined.
Nina:Yeah, you and I talked about this previously, about how we felt like Olivia Rodrigo didn't dig into the metaphor enough in that song. Like, there's so much fun to be had with that metaphor. It's such a great idea. And to dig into the language of comparing this person to a vampire. Do a quick write. What words come up when you think of vampire, you think of blood and teeth and all of the myth and the lore. And she did incorporate that to a degree. We felt like we were missing some elements that could have been really fun to add in.
J. Xander:Yeah, I think she could have stuck to the language just a little bit more and it would have been top tier. But, you know, I'm comparing her to Sarah McLachlan, which is like, you can't, you can't do that.
Nina:Im possible.
J. Xander:Yeah, she is a S, A tier songwriter. Yeah, you can't compete with that.
Nina:Well, I mean, Olivia Rodrigo is young and she's doing great.
J. Xander:That's true.
Nina:So, maybe, maybe, maybe she'll catch up someday.
J. Xander:That's true.
Nina:We're rooting for you, Olivia. Yeah. There's also... Sometimes you stick to the metaphor and you stick to it and it can help you write lyrics. Sometimes you just gotta drop it and say exactly what you mean. I was given this advice about a song that I'm putting out in a couple months where I was looked at and they're like, You're writing a lot of metaphors, but what are you actually trying to say? Instead of sticking to the metaphor too much. And I thought, oh wow, that, that is something that I should go back and edit. Because you and I have talked about, we really enjoy a turn of phrase, we really enjoy a metaphor, but sometimes you just have to say what you mean.
J. Xander:Right. And it's surprising to me that, um, in one of the courses that we took, they taught us this lesson, and they said that typically where this happens, is the chorus. Because this is where you want to get like your big point across and the example that the teacher used, shout out to Bonnie Hayes, the example that she used was Rolling in the Deep. Because she makes it very clear that the real big line of the chorus is we could have had it all, not necessarily anything about Rolling in the deep, even though I don't, I'm not really sure what that even means, to be honest, but it's not
Nina:I think the only one who knows is Adele,
J. Xander:Probably, but it, yeah, but the, the main message that she's singing, the, we could have had it all has nothing to do with the metaphor. It really is just dropping it at that point. And I think that's kind of, that works for the song's benefit.
Nina:It does. And, uh, I mean... with a voice like that who gives a shit what you're saying, but that was a great moment. I mean, it's Adele. At the end of the day, it's Adele. Um, I love that song. I love that it does go back and forth between this metaphor and these really raw moments. I went through the worst heartbreak of my life right before 21 came out. So 21 was the album that I had on repeat while trying to get over it. I think it was like The first real heartbreak of... Of my whole life.
J. Xander:Oh my god. I'm sorry. It was. That's kind of epic though to have that be like the album that you listen to in that particular part of your life.
Nina:Oh, it was great. Yeah. If you could have anyone write like the soundtrack to your heartbreak, you would want it to be Adele. So that's why I laugh as I say this because I'm this was so long ago, it no longer hurts, so it's so funny to me looking back on, I felt so deeply about this, and Adele was there for me.
J. Xander:That's sweet of her.
Nina:Also, side note, anytime I say a professor called me out, 90 percent of the time it's Bonnie.
J. Xander:Hi, Bonnie.
Nina:Come on the podcast, we love you.
J. Xander:That's funny because I never asked you who it was, but I kind of always... I always just assumed just as much and she'll say she'll say it with a smile too, which is the best part about her.
Nina:Yeah. And it's not saccharine. It's always very dry. Um, so it's very dry. It's to the point and she does it because she loves you and she wants you to do better and be better. So it's not just somebody like shitting on your idea. It's always someone with great experience. Um, It's funny, Valerie Orth and I talked about that. She was like, Bonnie gives you the kind of criticism that's like the, I called Bonnie the nicest baseball bat, the nicest beating with a baseball bat I've ever had.
J. Xander:She's gonna beat your song's ass with a smile.
Nina:She will. And Valerie was like, yes, but it's the kind of beating that makes you want to go and do work. And that, for me, always stuck out as how do I criticize people? Do I criticize them in a manner that is, one, believing in them, and two, makes them want to go do better be better.
J. Xander:Yeah, and I think this is a really important thing to touch on Nina because it's like I think a lot of songwriters especially like artists in general are sensitive and kind of hold on to their art. But I think songwriters especially are that way and I feel like it's important to learn that songwriting is a skill that you can get better at just like anything else, you know, you can get more refined with what you're trying to say you can get better at painting a picture. So, sometimes advice from somebody like that, for example, it's coming from a good place and it's gonna make you better. So it's important to be open to suggestions from people like that and people that have like your best interests at heart. There's always going to be haters out there, so be careful where you take your advice from, but just know that as a songwriter, you can still learn, you can still grow, you can still do things to refine your craft.
Nina:I love that and criticism is something that I struggled with because and this is something that I like to call out quite often there are a lot of false narratives in the music industry that you're supposed to just be naturally good at everything and if you're not naturally good at it then you're not good enough to quote unquote make it right like if you're not you know, Billie and Phineas Eilish, then you're not talented enough to be here. But that's not true. Music is a skill that you learn. Songwriting is a skill that you learn. The same way that you can learn to write a novel and you can learn to paint, like you said, and you can get better with each painting if you study and you focus. And critique can help you get there.
J. Xander:Yeah, I'd like to also look at Ed Sheeran as an example. Like, whether you like his stuff or not, he can write a pop song very well. And I remember, I remember he was on an interview too where they asked him, Yeah, you must have been like, just a natural at it. And he was like, No.
Nina:He played one of his demos. I think I, yeah, I think we're thinking the same. And maybe I I was in shock. Yeah.
J. Xander:And he was like, no. I was like, oh my God, I had to put in my 10,000 hours. Which for anybody that doesn't know, it's, there's this theory out there that once you've done something for 10,000 hours, you become a master at it.
Nina:Yes. I hear a lot of artists in online communities, especially independent artists, voicing a lot of frustration that they feel like their song isn't getting any traction or their music or their work isn't getting any traction. They're either not appealing to the right artists or they're not, you know, getting fans. And sometimes it is as simple as going to someone for critique and asking, what do you hear? So that next time I can do better. You and I've talked about this. There are certain levels of critique that are helpful and some that are not. Like when I took a, uh, a fully written song to a friend and I asked for mix notes and they're like, Oh, maybe you should change around these lyrics. I was like, this song is recorded and paid for. I'm on the mixing end of this. This is, this is the, this is the wrong time to do any kind of lyric anything.
J. Xander:Right. Yeah. If you're going to ask, yeah. Yeah. If you want to ask for like critiques and stuff like that, don't be afraid to be like, picky with it. Like, what do you actually want critiques on? Because something like that in Nina's situation is like, you know, your situation, that's not helpful at all. Like it's this, that ship has sailed. So, you know,
Nina:And if you are looking at someone's past work, if someone's looking at your past work. Then I think the most helpful thing that they can say is next time pay attention to this metaphor because this is what you did here and this is what I would have liked to hear. This is where I would have liked for it to go or um, you know, this lyric was really good but I loved this melody and I wanted more of the melody and you changed it to fit the lyric in which is something that I used to do all the time and now I'm much more aware of because I got critiques that said hey pay attention to your melody motifs how many you have per section. Just because a lyric is good, it doesn't mean that it's better than the melody.
J. Xander:Yeah, and I have to say for most people, this is just what I find. I'm sorry if this, you know, offends anybody, but what I find for like most beginner songwriters that feel like they're not necessarily getting traction or people might be losing interest, it is because a lot of the times you want to use more words than you really need in a song, forgetting that like the melody is what's going to draw people in.
Nina:We watched a video on Max Martin and how dedicated he is to his melodies and whether you like Max Martin or not, you cannot deny the amount of success that he has had
J. Xander:to this day and
Nina:still going
J. Xander:still making hits
Nina:Still knocking hits out of the park and I've heard a couple of songwriters who have worked with Max Martin. They've gotten frustrated because he is a stickler for the melody It's two maybe three melodic motifs per section. Usually that third is a lift into the next section and you do not move from the melody. It doesn't matter how cool the lyric is, come up with something else. And as I've written more and more, I'm finding that the melody is the more important part. I will always find a word to fit that melody. But if it's a really good melody, it's worth sticking to that and not change the lyric before I change the melody.
J. Xander:Right. And I don't remember if I learned this at Berklee or somewhere else to be completely honest. So, but one thing that I heard about Max Martin and a lot of the Swedish producers, the reason why that's kind of taken over pop music is because they don't necessarily have the best understanding of the English language.
Nina:Oh, that was Rodney. Sorry. Okay. Yeah.
J. Xander:Yeah. So for them, it doesn't really matter because all they care about is the melody. And that's been working pretty damn well for them, you know?
Nina:Yeah, that was Rodney Alejandro, and he was telling us why sometimes non English speakers have these smash hits, which is really relevant right now as we talk about, like, K pop coming into the U. S. and really gaining a foothold. Right. It's melody that's been more important.
J. Xander:Yeah. And Neil Dirks, one of our other professors, he had this, uh, lesson online. It's one of the videos that he did for Berklee Online, I believe, where he was talking about how a melodic hook will always kind of transcend even language. So like one of my favorite examples is, um, the little melody that goes, because if I sing that you're either going to think of, Back on the Chain Gang by the Pretenders or Fotos y Recuerdos by Selena. Because it uses the same melodic hook, it doesn't matter. You still remember it because it's a catchy hook, you know? Yeah. Even though the rest of those songs are in completely different languages, that hook is gonna stay with you.
Nina:Yes, and Bonnie Hayes was talking about non verbal hooks. That was another thing that we had to come up with. Um, that was a week, that was a really fun week, actually, um, in that class. Where we had to come up with as many non verbal hooks, just like whoas or yas. That add something to the song that pull the listener's ear back in. Cause you and I have talked about anything can be a hook. Attitude can be a hook. Right? Like, anything. And so non verbals are a great way to pull somebody back in. Especially because they are so easy to sing along to. But the most prominent one that's on the top ten right now is Taylor Swift, Cruel Summer.
J. Xander:She's really good at those.
Nina:She's great at them, but if you think about the chorus, it's Ooh, whoa, whoa, it's a cruel summer That's a non lyric hook, but it's so catchy and it's so fun to sing that I was singing it with like 2, 000 other people the other night at a concert Yep That bridge, that bridge goes hard though. I do love it. That's another section that I've always had trouble with is the bridge because there's so many different philosophies around what to do with it. Do you backtrack? Do you get heavier? I'm also very partial to instrumental bridges because I don't have to write them. They're not as hard to write.
J. Xander:Yeah, I heard a really great quote about it from, his name is Adam Olin. He's in another songwriting group that I'm with. And he was kind of explaining the different sections and like how he thought of them. And he was saying, the verses are how things are. Just kind of the story, person, places, things. The chorus is how I feel about it. Like the big message of it. And the bridge section is what if, what if we did this? What if we steered into this direction, which I love that way of thinking about it, because your bridge, both thematically and melodically should be. Completely different than everything else. Otherwise, there's no point in having that section. Just go to your final chorus. In my opinion.
Nina:That's great advice. I love that. The bridge is what if. I love that. Um, some advice that I got around a bridge was don't build a bridge to nowhere, which is such a specific reference, but it's true, like, don't have a bridge just to have a bridge. I, in one of my own songs called North Star, could not write a bridge. I had said everything that I needed to say. It was, it was a love song and it was good the way that it was. I took it into my friends at Studio 601 and they're like, what if we just did a guitar solo here? And I was like, yeah, wonderful. Love,
J. Xander:You don't always need a bridge. A lot of, um, pop songs. I've even heard Adele do this before like, hello, that bridge is basically her just saying, like, out over and over again. Like, there's not a really, like, profound lyric or theme to that section itself. But then I've also heard songs like Gravity by where the bridge kind of is, like, the jumping point. That is the climax of the song, you know? So, I love bridges because you can kind of get away with doing a lot in that section.
Nina:You can. It's one of the places where you can be the most creative in the song and kind of just You can go a completely different direction and then come back, and we're all kind of waiting for that, but also there's, there's a good bridge, and there's a bad bridge, and there are bridges to nowhere, right?
J. Xander:Yeah, I guess for me, I don't know how you approach them, Nina, but for me, the biggest thing with the bridge is like, if I'm performing this live, would this section be interesting to watch or experience? Because if it's not, I start to question, well, then does it even need to be there? You know?
Nina:That's such a good point. I forget about that. Every once in a while, I think about would this be fun to sing live? Would other people have fun with this? And that's usually when I'm writing motifs or melodies that I think about it. Most of the time when I'm writing a bridge, Because I'm such a pre chorus writer, because I'm such a pre chorus writer, I try and pull that melody back in again because I'm trying to build anticipation, which is the purpose of a pre chorus section is to build into like that big moment. And so I always think about how can I rework the melody or maybe the chords or something that feels familiar from the pre chorus so that I can build anticipation here for that final chorus. One thing to keep in mind though, the more that I've gotten into songwriting, and J, I don't know if you feel this way too, is now as I look at the lyrics, I think it's not that serious. I would rather kill my darling, which is a horrible phrase that we use all the time, but it works. That lyric that could have sparked the whole song, suddenly you get to a place where it doesn't fit anymore and you have to do away with it. And it's heartbreaking and it's hard, but It's not that serious, and... Everything should be in service to the song as opposed to in service to the ego. Because I've written lines where I'm like, oh, this is brilliant and it's amazing and I have to check myself. Is it better than the melody? Is it better than the subject of the song? Are you taking the song in a different direction just for this line? Because it evolved past it. And so it's something that I always have to like, take a step back and say, how does this line fit in with the larger theme of the song?
J. Xander:Right. I mean, you can get as deep. and fancy as you want with your songs, you know, but you can also write something like I'm blue dabba dee dabba die and be remembered as a legend forever. So it's like
Nina:Forever and Bebe Rexa will come in and re record it.
J. Xander:Yeah, it's up to you what you want to do. You can do whatever you want with your art, but you just keep in mind that like, those of us that have to do it professionally, it kind of is our job to, to some degree, get it stuck into people's heads just a little bit.
Nina:Yeah, I mean, that to me is more powerful than someone being like, Oh, that was a good line. And then they forget it because it's misset or because it's in an odd spot or like what the placement is just wrong. It doesn't go with the rest of the song. This gets into the conversation of like writing a single versus writing an album track. And that's not necessarily what we set out to do every time we write a song. But like today I was working on a song that's deeply personal. And I was like, this is not a single, it's just not, this is going to be whatever the heck I want it to be. And that's beautiful. And that's great. But I think writing, there's nothing wrong with focusing on writing a single. There's nothing wrong with focusing on these tips and tricks that we have, that we know that are catchy in order to draw more people into your music. Because I feel like a single is good advertising for yourself, especially as an artist, and that will pull those people in who do relate to those deep album tracks. Right. And a fan base.
J. Xander:Yeah, I think, I think you want to get, give them a taste of like, you know, the catchy side first, so then you can get more into the deeper stuff later. Cause that, I mean, even, you know, a hook will, will build interest, if it's good enough, I think.
Nina:I read something about you need seven impressions before somebody seeks out your music.
J. Xander:Seven?
Nina:Like, they have to have heard it seven times. for like that majority of the market to be like, Oh, this is good. Let me seek this out myself. Not like this is not innovators or early adopters if we're talking about like the innovation adoption curve. Yeah, this is like a larger part of the market. Apparently it takes seven impressions before somebody will open up their streaming app and go look you up and go look for you.
J. Xander:Oh, okay. That seems like a lot
Nina:It seems like a lot but you know, and we talked about social media last week. How many times do you need to post your song? That's true I always feel really annoying posting the same thing over and over again. But you just you don't know who's gonna see it and at what time or what's going on. Yeah, and if it takes seven impressions for somebody to leave TikTok and go open Apple Music and listen to your song in full, then, then it's a numbers game. And it's not like they're active listening seven times. It's passive listening. So it's scrolling on TikTok. It's overhearing something in the grocery store. It's your friend having it on a playlist that they're playing at a party. So it's not someone like actively seeking out music. That's why it's seven times.
J. Xander:Yeah, I mean that makes sense.
Nina:I will say I've tested this on my mom.
J. Xander:Doesn't she get enough of you at home already? I'm pretty sure she's passed the seven. Mark. Nina, I'm just, I'm just gonna go ahead and make that assumption.
Nina:No, about new music. My mom is adamant, like she does not like new music. Anytime I play something for her, I'm like, this is so good. I'm sure you'll like it. She's like, turn on. Something familiar. I just wanna listen to what I know.
J. Xander:There's a lot of people like, Honestly, I'm kind of like that a lot of the time. So
Nina:a lot of time, especially because when I'm listening to something for the first time, I usually am active listening with my songwriter brain on. Whereas if I already know I enjoy something, my songwriter brain is off and she's in the backseat. She's just having a good time, just chilling. But I have attempted this with my mom and it does take seven plays without me pointing out the song before she goes, I've heard this before. I like this.
J. Xander:Yeah. I know I've talked about them like several times on this podcast, but one of the reasons I think like. Iniko is really onto something is because they have such an like an intriguing look and just presence on TikTok overall that You look at them one time and you're like, what's this? I'm curious you know, so that kind of shows how Everything is kind of important even the look when you're in music that can draw in an audience
Nina:Yes, so my sister and I went to see Renee Rapp on Monday night And I saw a bunch of people wearing this shirt that said the same phrase on it, and I had forgotten that it was one of her lyrics, but it is in, it's, I don't think this song is going to be, um, a single. It might be, I could be wrong, but it's called Tummy Hurts, and it's a good album track. Like, I'm not trying to diss the song. I just don't think it has single power. But one of the lyrics is, I just want some recognition for having good tits and a big heart.
J. Xander:Don't we all. That's the dream. Don't we all. Who doesn't?
Nina:And So I listened to the song back, she changes the melody in order to fit that lyric in a little bit. And it's so funny. And now her fans are wearing it. That's one of those moments that that was fully worth it. Like that was such a good line. Leave it in because it's funny. Yeah. And like the t shirts are not on her website. Cause I was like, I need that shirt. I need that shirt yesterday. And we had to leave real quick. Cause it was Monday night. My sister had to get home to be up by six. So we didn't get to stop by the merch tent, but I don't think that they had the t shirt there. And so I was looking for it online. She doesn't even sell it. It's fans that are making this t shirt that say, uh, they say just good tits and a big heart. And I, I love, I, I need that shirt so badly.
J. Xander:Renee, if you're listening, get on that. Cause they're making a buck off of you, so might as well beat them to it.
Nina:Yeah, they are. But it was a great deep track moment for the fans. I will also say, she's one of the best vocalists I've ever seen live. Ever.
J. Xander:I'm sure.
Nina:Incredible. She also pointed out that it's Bisexual Awareness Month, the month of September. And she goes, if anyone has listened to Renee Rapp's music, this is even funnier. She says, we are very bi and very aware. I was like, I will follow you into battle, ma'am. Like, lead the way. Just love you. That was one of my favorite. Lyric moments of the year just because the t shirts were too dang good.
J. Xander:Did you see the little, this is totally random, did you see the little moment with her and Drew Barrymore?
Nina:No.
J. Xander:Some guy was like rushing on stage and immediately as soon as that guy started yelling she was like oh no we gotta go we gotta like she was ready while meanwhile the complete opposite's happening on Drew Barrymore's side she's like what? What? What's happening? What is he asking? Like, she's just oblivious as to what could possibly happen right now. Renee's like, we gotta get the fuck outta here right now. And like, dra like, goes and gets her and like, pulls her off stage. It was amazing.
Nina:Wow. Again, I would march into battle with Renee Rapp.
J. Xander:Like she's a smart cookie, that Renee. She knew something was up.
Nina:She is. I will say, I'm really enjoying her first album. And it has my, I think my one favorite lyric moment of the year. It's from her song, I Wish. And she says, how can the person who taught me to breathe take their last breath in front of me? And, just reading that, I feel it in my throat, like, my eyes are burning, I wanna cry, it's such a beautiful song about grief and overcoming that. But it also has a melody that's supporting it that is building to a crescendo, it's a pre chorus moment, that the chorus lives up to following it, but that it at almost stopped me in my tracks. I almost had to pull over the car like it was so profound. I loved it. To a more fun topic. The Nashville Fake Out is becoming more and more prominent in all genres. Olivia Rodrigo used it. I think this is her new single. It is on the new album. It's called Get Him Back. Have you heard it yet?
J. Xander:No, I haven't.
Nina:It's so funny because it goes back and forth. It uses the phrase get him back as in I want him back in a relationship with me and also I want revenge for him breaking my heart. And so she's flip flopping between these two moments.
J. Xander:Very smart.
Nina:So relatable. Yeah, I've had those moments.
J. Xander:Yeah. So this is a really cool technique when you have like a really good title in mind, you take the concept and you just completely flip it on his head. And we've mentioned it a couple of times, but Last Night does a good job of that. Where it's like, you know, it assumes it's going to be talking about somebody's last night together with their partner or whatever but it's the opposite and the word last night is used to basically extend each section so it's just like it keeps going and going and going using that word which i think is very clever
Nina:I love that aspect of that song um this Olivia Rodrigo song made me laugh super hard Yeah. It's creative, and it's funny. The lyrics in her new album can be creative and funny. They're also, some of them are extremely poignant and really gorgeous. She's evolving so well at the age of 19. She's... She's got a great handle on it. I'm really excited to see how this song does. She does a great job of going back and forth between these two concepts and weighing them very evenly, even all the way through the bridge. Amazing.
J. Xander:Yeah, I can't wait. I haven't had a chance to listen to the album yet, but I'm looking forward to that.
Nina:It's good, do suggest. Have you had a chance to listen to the Hozier album? Because he is someone who is very well known for his lyrics.
J. Xander:Uh, a little bit, yes.
Nina:I want to point out another song that almost made me pull over on the side of the road. I was in the car with Skylar and I was like, oh, I want to listen to the new Hozier song. This is before the album came out. This was an EP, I believe. I had heard the teaser for this song and it's called Eat Your Young. And the lyrics made me stop what I was doing. I was like, I need you to read them out loud to me. I was like, Skylar, get your phone. I, I need you to read them. And they were so shocking. And she looked it up. She's like, Oh my gosh, it's about famine in Ireland and tying it to Dante's Inferno. And it is, that song pulls no punches. It gives no fucks. It goes all the way there. Wow. When you talk about like, following the metaphor, oh boy does it. It's a song about gluttony for those of you who don't know. The album is based upon the epic poem, Dante's Inferno, which is one of my favorite things that I think I ever studied in English class in high school. And so I was really excited about this album. And that, that song was a whoa moment because the melody, and this was brilliant, had me thinking, Oh, this is going to be a fun song. And then I was listening. I was like, wait a minute, what did he just say? It's impossible to talk about lyrics without talking about melody. I feel like this. We wanted to talk about lyrics, but melody is just such a key component to it.
J. Xander:Yeah, I mean, ironically, I think that the first rule of lyric writing is that melody should always take the lead. precedent before it, in my opinion.
Nina:I think that's the best advice that we can give is have a really solid melody that's going to be what matters most. I remember arguing with someone who was a poet and they're like, no, the words are the most important part. Like they were a poetry major. I was like, no. How many people do you know just recite a poem that they weren't forced to memorize in English class? How many people can sing a song from memory right now? Cause the melody was that good.
J. Xander:Right. So if you're a songwriter, what separates us from poets and composers is that our job really is to put the two together. Yes. That's the bottom line of like what it boils down to, like what the differences are between those three art forms.
Nina:Couldn't have said it better myself. That's what we got to do. Music and lyrics together. Alright guys, when we come back, we will give you our final segment, our playback picks of the week. Alright guys, welcome back and here for our final segment, our playback picks of the week. J, what have you been listening to?
J. Xander:So my pick this week is Betty Davis Eyes, and specifically it's a cover, um, Kim Carnes did the original, of course, um, but I listened to the AZTX cover of it. I wanted to learn more about them as artists themselves, but I really couldn't find that much online, unfortunately, other than they are, they seem to be a duo from the United Kingdom that does a lot of, like, electronic dance music. Um, and I really liked, well... I just, I love this song anyway. I think it's super well written and paints a picture of somebody really, really well. But it also, uh, this specific version of it, it sounds like a fun Cross or like middle ground of like Kygo and Jonas Blue like if they were to produce a cover of it That's I think what this version of the song would sound like
Nina:That sounds awesome This is one of those songs that you and I have talked about is so well written from a melody lyric harmony perspective that it is it does cross genres.
J. Xander:Yeah. Yeah, it could be a couple I could see somebody doing the song is like a country song also
Nina:There's an idea. That'd be fun. That's funny. I'm going to talk about a cover too.
J. Xander:Oh, cool.
Nina:Well, so I'm going to talk about Alexander 23. Young artist, singer songwriter, I was gonna bring up his song IDK You Yet, which is kind of a more moody pop version of Michael Bublé's Just Haven't Met You Yet. It's kind of the same subject matter of like longing for that person in your life and imagining what life is gonna be. He asks, I wonder what color your eyes are And it's really sweet. And the whole point is like life's gotten really hard lately. This is what I'm looking forward to. This is what I'm hoping for is like having my person. Um, And it's, it's really adorable. I bring him up because I saw him open for Renee Rapp at Stubb's, Barbecue in Austin, which is iconic, even though it doesn't sound like it. It's not just a barbecue joint. It's a great venue. So this was, I think, the song that he played last and it's one of his bigger songs. In the middle of his set, he did a cover of Steal My Girl by One Direction, and it was amazing. First of all, he did it so well, and secondly, he knew who was in the audience because every person there knew almost all the words to that song. It also has a great section that has a non verbal in it of just like nah, nah, nah, nah. And so everybody was singing along in the middle of the set. And I wanted to bring that up to other independent artists or up and coming artists, there might be people in your audience who don't know you. And that's a great way for them to get to know you, is by playing a cover, and having them sing along with you
J. Xander:Right, I think that's, that's a really great point actually, not to bring that up, and we should have talked about it more during the, uh, the social media episode, because, you know, for Songwriters, I think it's harder if you're just posting like originals that people don't know yet But if you have like a really cool look and a really, you know, just nicely done video anyway of like a cover I think people will want to explore more and see what else you can do
Nina:And it didn't feel weird for him to do that cover. Like every once in a while I hear a cover of someone and I'm like, well, that's a little off brand and sometimes in a good way. And sometimes in not so good way, but that fits super well. First of all, it fit his brand really well. Um, cause he was having fun with it. While also like, that's just a good song. I just like that song. And the crowd, they were at a formative age when that song came out. Most of us were listening to that song when we were younger and, and we loved it and we loved One Direction, but it did fit his brand really well. So it hit both of those. And I wanted to touch on that because it was such a brilliant moment in his set. That the people who maybe weren't paying so much attention to the opening act, they were paying attention then and they were dancing with their friends and they were singing along, which is really what you want from a performance. You imparted that upon me one time, is people are going to remember the way that you made them feel.
J. Xander:Right. They're not going to remember. necessarily the fancy like riffs like exactly as you did them. They're going to remember exactly just the feelings and vibes that you gave them while you were performing.
Nina:And he gave me such a good feeling and good vibe. I listened to him on the way home and I discovered some new songs and I really love them and I do especially love the song IDK You Yet. It is, it is really sweet. It's really adorable. Go listen to Alexander 23. And J, any final thoughts?
J. Xander:No, I don't. I don't really have any, but if you're a songwriter out there, go start writing some lyrics.
Nina:Go write some lyrics and have fun. Don't take it too seriously. That's our best advice is melody comes first and having time with it. Alright guys, we will see you next week. Go create some good in this world. Bye.